Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[W|M]

Life > An inanimate building.

 

[MathNerd]

If you believe that life < a building, you have some serious problems.

 

[Whosit]

@Whosit:I agree completely.the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few,or the one.that's actually the entire logic and reason behind us politicians being in power.isn't it?

As representatives of the people, yes, I have to work with the assumption that we were elected (read: joined ) because the people believe we can best serve their interests and that we are able to make the tough decisions that need to be made.

Wait, wait, wait!!

A granary is NOT a need.

To be able to live IS.

One could argue that a human doesn't need arms or legs to live; they are just extremely helpful. (I'm not making that argument, though.) As a civilization, we do need Granaries, Libraries, Forges, Markets, and soldiers in order to prosper and avoid destruction at the hands of our enemies. For a city to grow and develop, it needs these pieces of infrastructure. If you are trying to tell me that a size 5 city with no improvements and no infrastructure is stronger than, say, a size 2 city with improved tiles, a Granary and Forge, I would have to consider you mistaken.

Sure, you can eventually get those improvements in a city by doing it the slow way, but over the long-term, the faster growth curve of the city in which you can rush projects to completion will be significantly greater, thus making the civilization that much stronger that much earlier.

Edit: It has long since become apparent to me that there really aren't any fence-sitters in this debate to be convinced. I think that everyone who has spoken up has made their position very clear. Personally, I'd like to avoid further debate that will only serve to sour the mood between us, and I propose that we table discussion of the Slavery issue until Lighthearter opens a vote on it. We can decide things through the ballot box.

 

[MathNerd]

Sorry to get onto a kinda touchy topic here:

What is the point of life? Is it to advance your civilization, or is it to live happily and enjoy your life? IMO, the problem with humans is that we are too smart. Back in the hunter-gatherer days (Cull, you may have noticed that I changed my opinion on this since we did Ishmael in school), the average workday was just 2 hours a day. The rest of the time, people could spend playing, talking with their family, and just enjoying their lives. Today, however, almost nobody works 2 hours a day, and you can bet that people were a lot happier in the hunter-gatherer days than they are now.

IMO, the success of a civilization should be measured not by how advanced they are, but by how happy its people are.

EDIT: Sorry, I just Whosit's edit. I personally believe that you are just trying to end the discussion so you don't run out of options, , but OK, I'm fine with that.

 

[Whosit]

EDIT: Sorry, I just Whosit's edit. I personally believe that you are just trying to end the discussion so you don't run out of options, , but OK, I'm fine with that.

I knew you would say that, but you are incorrect. I could keep arguing for a long time, but it no longer appears that it would serve any purpose. I dislike arguing for the sake of arguing, so I figure we all might as well save our breath until after the vote, when we can yell at each other for voting the "wrong way."

I read Ishmael. Good book.

 

[Aysee]

I second putting this up to a vote, personally, I would have been fine with debating longer, but I see the point; besides, debating any further would just clog up pages, which would make it hard for people who don't check in every hour.

 

[arya126]

Never read Ishmael. Ill have to research it. It sounds good.

But on to the important topics, i will have to give my say in these things. i have PM'ed, read the discussions, and i am finally ready to state my opinion.

Please note that what i say here does not reflect what i think in RL, such as the concept of human life. these topics are very tricky for me, and in RL often end up as shouting matches for one reason or another. Also slavery, would be very normal for this time period.

Do not say that you speak for the people. Only about 25% of the voters voted for your coalition, so whoever you are 'speaking for' is not that many. i am somewhat upset that Lh is raising the opposition leader merely because the opposition people are SAYING that the people are unhappy. If i could have done that when i was opposition leader, then an armed revolution would have happened before Cull could have made his first decision. basicly, they are just dominating through propaganda, when how can we determine in this realpolitik whether they speak the truth? It would be very unfair if people could just state what the public is feeling and make it fact. Public opinion would change every few posts and the fun in the game would be lost. i am already considering early retirement from this thread due to the rule changes that i think were made in favor of what is now the opposition, and by how LH is giving them everything they could ask for, such as the raising of the opposition meter.



But for the policies:

1. I fully endorse slavery. Dont give that bull that are people are ethically advanced when we probabaly dont even have 'culture' in game, or very much of it at least. We are not a very civilize empire yet, and we are subject to the same faults, flaws, and qualities that all humans have. We still have anger, need revenge, and normally put the nation and/or their actual individual in prioirty rather that caring about whether some stupid russians are dying after they had taken some of us as hostages. the same applies in the slavery case. Why should the citizens care about the group of thugs that tried to mug them on the way home from the work the day before/ will they try and stop the government from using them to make life better for that same person that almost got mugged by building a granary? No. Slavery will be ijmplemented in my plan of action. Also a potential ally in the irish mongols use slavery as well, and we could use the similar civic bonus in relations.

2. The tech path i will choose will involve getting theology, and therefore founding a religion, first. I believe that this will give us significant power against the buddhist bloc, and allow us to form our own bloc. I am aware that some people think they are worthless, but they arent. they are a nessicity to form a true empire, and will be researched eventually. Why not now?
My official plan is (Trade to Mongols writing for IW)-meditation-polytheism-monotheism-theology-metal casting-construction-priesthood(if we arent able to trade for it by then)-code of laws-currency. After that, we will attempt to get machinery, and fuedalism before that if possible. If i have a say in it of course, since that could be as much as 2 adminstrations in the future. I want the religion and IW known ASAP, while we also need techs to help us build our empire such as CoL (for courthouses), and metal casting (for the forges and other stuff).

This just adreeses the main part of my plan. I will give specific micromangement things in the very near future. i just wanted my opinion on these things out there.

Also LH- Hav eyou thought about a realpolitik reporter story based on an interview with the president describing the nnegotaitions in moscow as well as what peter will do about me escaping and if he just wants the stus quo or what? because if he wants war, that will majorly change my policies.

 

[arya126]

Also i, as president, veto the motion for a vote. The adminstration is perfectly able to handle the decisions of this country, just like its citizens elected us to do.

 

[Whosit]

Mr. President, I would like to remind you that all four religious technologies--Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, and Monotheism--must be researched before the Theology bulb is possible.

Additionally, if you are planning to research both Code of Laws and Currency, it is significantly better to research Currency first. Why? Currency is a prerequisite of Code of Laws, and therefore provides a 20%(!) bonus to research when researching Code of Laws. Priesthood is also a prerequisite. Having both means a total of +40% bonus beakers when researching Code of Laws.

Just thought I would put that out there.

 

[Nukeknockout]

I agree the oppositions been getting kinda strong for having all of 6 votes,I think.I support the administration,and I've noticed that the average joes on my street hold "kill the Russians" rallys every day,as vengeance for the perfidious kidnapping of our glorious president! in fact,if we're not careful,we could have a red scare with your slavery program,where people denounce each other as Russian sympathizers.don't let this happen,president.use the criminals

 

[Lighthearter]

Here's (again) how opposition works:

A mass army of lurkers in the government will play right into their hands because if there are even 1 or 2 highly active debating members of the Opposition in the thread then the OSR will climb - but it's pretty much reached an overall cap now - we have whosit and Aysee as fairly active government members, which symbolizes government announcements and such on Opposition propaganda. And the President is back.

In short, unless arya does something INCREDIBLY stupid, Armed Revolution isn't happening.

Realpolitik Reporter? I'll get on that

- Lighthearter

 

[arya126]

Well lets hope i dont do something that stupid. aysee, if i do something that might qualify as what lightheater considers INCREDIBLY STUPID then i give you the power to veto it. I think we would win an armed revolutuion anyway. With a big edge in numbers and nukeknockout as commander i dont think we would have too much chance of losing.

And the president will be an active debater again as he was before the crisis with the krkaen stealing my computer for the russians .

Also i would like to remind everyone that the tech plan i posted is just the one that im leaning on. I am still waiting for the advice of my advisors, and the plan is in no way final. Aysee actually has a very good plan that i might like to choose.

And i cant wait for the next edition of the realpolitik reporter!

 

[MathNerd]

Never read Ishmael. Ill have to research it. It sounds good.

But on to the important topics, i will have to give my say in these things. i have PM'ed, read the discussions, and i am finally ready to state my opinion.

Please note that what i say here does not reflect what i think in RL, such as the concept of human life. these topics are very tricky for me, and in RL often end up as shouting matches for one reason or another. Also slavery, would be very normal for this time period.

Do not say that you speak for the people. Only about 25% of the voters voted for your coalition, so whoever you are 'speaking for' is not that many. i am somewhat upset that Lh is raising the opposition leader merely because the opposition people are SAYING that the people are unhappy. If i could have done that when i was opposition leader, then an armed revolution would have happened before Cull could have made his first decision. basicly, they are just dominating through propaganda, when how can we determine in this realpolitik whether they speak the truth? It would be very unfair if people could just state what the public is feeling and make it fact. Public opinion would change every few posts and the fun in the game would be lost. i am already considering early retirement from this thread due to the rule changes that i think were made in favor of what is now the opposition, and by how LH is giving them everything they could ask for, such as the raising of the opposition meter.



But for the policies:

1. I fully endorse slavery. Dont give that bull that are people are ethically advanced when we probabaly dont even have 'culture' in game, or very much of it at least. We are not a very civilize empire yet, and we are subject to the same faults, flaws, and qualities that all humans have. We still have anger, need revenge, and normally put the nation and/or their actual individual in prioirty rather that caring about whether some stupid russians are dying after they had taken some of us as hostages. the same applies in the slavery case. Why should the citizens care about the group of thugs that tried to mug them on the way home from the work the day before/ will they try and stop the government from using them to make life better for that same person that almost got mugged by building a granary? No. Slavery will be ijmplemented in my plan of action. Also a potential ally in the irish mongols use slavery as well, and we could use the similar civic bonus in relations.

2. The tech path i will choose will involve getting theology, and therefore founding a religion, first. I believe that this will give us significant power against the buddhist bloc, and allow us to form our own bloc. I am aware that some people think they are worthless, but they arent. they are a nessicity to form a true empire, and will be researched eventually. Why not now?
My official plan is (Trade to Mongols writing for IW)-meditation-polytheism-monotheism-theology-metal casting-construction-priesthood(if we arent able to trade for it by then)-code of laws-currency. After that, we will attempt to get machinery, and fuedalism before that if possible. If i have a say in it of course, since that could be as much as 2 adminstrations in the future. I want the religion and IW known ASAP, while we also need techs to help us build our empire such as CoL (for courthouses), and metal casting (for the forges and other stuff).

This just adreeses the main part of my plan. I will give specific micromangement things in the very near future. i just wanted my opinion on these things out there.

Also LH- Have you thought about a realpolitik reporter story based on an interview with the president describing the nnegotaitions in moscow as well as what peter will do about me escaping and if he just wants the stus quo or what? because if he wants war, that will majorly change my policies.

We've already yelled the heck out of slavery, so lets not get going on that.

Second, your administration is not even allowing a vote? SEE HOW CONTROLLING YOU ARE!?!

Third, if you are willing to modify your tech plan slightly like: (Trade to Mongols writing for IW)-meditation-polytheism-monotheism-priesthood-(bulb theology) - construction - currency - CoL - metal casting, the opposition would be fine with that.

 

[MathNerd]

Well lets hope i dont do something that stupid. aysee, if i do something that might qualify as what lightheater considers INCREDIBLY STUPID then i give you the power to veto it. I think we would win an armed revolutuion anyway. With a big edge in numbers and nukeknockout as commander i dont think we would have too much chance of losing.

And the president will be an active debater again as he was before the crisis with the krkaen stealing my computer for the russians .

Also i would like to remind everyone that the tech plan i posted is just the one that im leaning on. I am still waiting for the advice of my advisors, and the plan is in no way final. Aysee actually has a very good plan that i might like to choose.

And i cant wait for the next edition of the realpolitik reporter!

Arya, keep in mind that Whosit and I are still debating. Unless you get permission from the opposition, please don't make a final decision.

 

[Aysee]

Yeah, We want interviews back!
If Arya vetoes the vote, does this mean we adopt slavery? (had to ask that)

Going to be gone for the rest of the day and part of tommorow.

Last thing:

Here's an order of succession that I've cooked up:

President
Vice President
Interior Minister
Military Minister
Foreign Minister
Financial Minister

And yes, priesthood before theology

 

[MathNerd]

Arya, Mr. Vetoer here even says Priesthood before Theo. You guys have a lot of infighting going on!

 

[Whosit]

Arya, Mr. Vetoer here even says Priesthood before Theo. You guys have a lot of infighting going on!

I think that it's less infighting, and more just a little confusion about what is a prerequisite for what. Arya said that he doesn't have BTS, just Warlords, and navigating the different tech trees can be a little tricky if you're not used to it.

 

[W|M]

oooooo...infighting...

Once again, this ...

 

[Lighthearter]

The Realpolitik Reporter

This is Lighthearter of the Realpolitik Reporter here with the news from the negotiations! Well, ever since the Baltic Incident President arya126 has been negotiating with Czar Peter of Russia about the hostages from the Mermaid. However, negotiations broke down and the Night Eagles moved in and rescued them. They've disappeared back into the mists now, so we haven't got a way of talking to them and getting comments.

Now, for the first time ever, see the negotiations unfold! (OOC: All OOC comments are removed)

We will begin with Britain's payment of 100 gold for the damage it dealt to Russia's navy and a further 100 for the safe return of the prisoners currently detained in Russia.

- Czar Peter

Peter started off belligerently, maybe hoping to gain concessions early. Unfortunately this set the tone for his negotiating style over the evening.

I am sorry to hear that peter. Surely your intracite spy network must know that our nation only has 1/20 that amount in gold? The incompetence of the previous administration (Cull's) shows itself again. And im sure you will understand that the peoples of england will not stand for payment TO you? We lost an entire ship to your archers, and most of the people on it. The hostages that you hold have no families. Nobody cares about them. They were little less than pirates to most people. But we lost an entire ship, lost more to the plague called death, and our other ship was much more severly damaged than yours.

Didnt you say in the discussions last night that you thought we were heretics? Maybe we can change that. How about you teach us how to meditate? If we know how to contact our inner souls, and reach the wisdom of the great Buddha, then this kind of incident will never happen again.

arya responded diplomatically, but made the mistake of attacking the competency of Peter's spies. This made the Czar angry, we think.

YOU THINK I WILL GIVE AWAY SECRET TO GREAT MEDITATION TO YOU!?!?! BAHA! Russia is great nation - if you are not smart enough to discover meditation on your own, then you are not deserving of it! And even if I accepted - what would I get? See - there your incompetence shines through.

I am feeling somewhat generous, however. You teach us writing and we will waive the fees - on the reparations. Money will still be required to reclaim the prisoners.

- Czar Peter

Peter seems a we bit upset, and arya moves to placate him somewhat.

I think that is almost fair. How about we pay you 10 gold, and teach you to write, and convert to your great religion, but you waive the reparations fees and teach us how to meditate? I think that is acceptable.

Dont you?

Unfortunately Peter is a stubborn bastard, and seem to be seeking points to use as leverage to go to war.

I am insulted by this offer! The secrets of Meditation are OURS, you hear?? They cannot be bought for a few pennies! And such a pathetic amount of money cannot begin to cover this travesty!

However, if you taught us writing, I am still willing to settle this issue and move on the the prisoner negotiations. That offer stands - are you smart enough to accept it - Mr. President?

- Czar Peter

arya attempts once more to diplomatically sooth the Russian dictator, however, Peter's not buying it.

How about we teach you writing in order for you to waive the reparations fees, and the next step, alphabet, for your ways of meditation? After that we can move on to discussion about what to do with the hostages.

Here is a counter-offer, President. I will accept first portion of your offer and take Writing for waiving the fees - but Meditation is Russian and will remain Russian. Understand? But if you were to offer us Alphabet as a gift - that would be greatly appreciated - and wise.

- Czar Peter

But then things really shook up - I only heard about this then, which was a real shocker!

You know i just recieved a letter from home. It turns out that we have 3 russian stowaways on board the ship that returned to our lands. They are currently held in liverpool. One of them claims to be your son. Do you care to negotiate for their safe return? I think that maybe that and alphabet can possibly be given for the knowledge of meditation...

With this new information, surely England has an advantage?

My son? My son is in Petrograd! Oh, you mean that OTHER kid? OK. How's this? You release those three Russians to St. Petersburg without constraint and I let you leave my palace alive?

Czar Peter

Things went downhill from there, despite arya's best efforts.

I am sorry but i must refuse. Think this out. If you kill me, then my people will never let those russians go. If you hold me hostage, nothing will happen because i gave specific orders in case of it. But if you accept my deal then you benefit by gaining more knowledge than you can possibly imagine and getting your son and his friends back! All you have to do is remove any demands for reparations for your navy and teach us how to meditate.

arya's gifted at this, no doubts there - but Peter is too . . . in a . . . . ah, different and unique way . . . .

Bah. Never liked my son anyway. He's all "Democracy" and "For the people" and stuff, and doesn't get the idea of RULING! I think he'll have a GREAT time in your pathetic country! Then maybe when my armies come in a wipe it off the planet he'll realize how great Russia really is! THAT ought to teach him respect for his ol' pa!

And really - I pay attention to your "elections" - you won an overwhelming majority. Do you really think that England will let harm befall you with THAT kind of a majority? Especially Aysee - since if he falters MathNerd takes over. Those Greenies don't have the guts to stand up to Russians!

- Czar Peter

With the situation going down the crapper with amazing speed, arya attacks.

Yes and since i won such an overwhelming majority the people will listen to me when i say not to let you use me as a bargaining chip. I am their savior from GreenPeace. They will heed my words.

So will you give us knowledge and waive the reparations for more knowledge than imaginable and your son? Also his two friends claim to be important too. One says hes your best friend Putin, and the other thinks he's your personal priest. With this in mind, would you like to accept my offer?

A good shot by all accounts - but there was one little fact about Putin we didn't know . . . .

You are kidding, right? Putin is con man from St. Petersburg who tries to ingratiate himself with the rich by pretending to be a friend of mine. Watch your pockets. And my personal priest is right here - see? SHE never set sail on Russian naval vessel. No idea who the other guy is.

You don't get it, do you? Russia is not out to make friends with little Britain. You WILL give us Writing and Alphabet or the hostages - and then your bodyguards - die one by one. You understand? You will die last of all, but unless you give us these secrets you WILL die.

Czar Peter

arya finally decides to fight fire with fire, and it appears to garner some results, even if they're not the ones we wanted.

I am sorry to hear that. How about we show you a map-wait u have never seen a map before?-we will show you this drawing that shows where places are. This way you can learn about people from all over the world. Theres this real nice fellow down in africa. His names hannibal. I think you would like him. I can set up a meeting bewteen you 2 if you want. But we wont do that, OR EVER GIVE YOU A TECHNOLOGY if we dont learn how to meditate.

Do you hear me loud and clear? You must also waive the reparations fees.

My final offer is writing and an alphabet and return of the hostages in Liverpool, for meditation and no fees for your navy.

Peter then shows his reaction to this tactic. The reporting staff were a little frightened at the time, as Peter's bodyguards had suddenly filed into the room with swords drawn.

WHAT?!?!? I am insulted to an enormous degree!

You have one last chance. Give us those technologies NOW or I shall instruct my men to kill three prisoners - one woman and two children.

I will be generous - if you acquiesce then I shall let you return to Britain and rule it in the name of Russia.

- Czar Peter

That's when things went all pear-shaped on us. arya promised Peter some vague things and drew some random symbols with a flaming stick on a fabulously expensive tapestry, passing it of as writing. Peter ordered a new fabulously expensive tapestry and retired to his rooms with the dead tapestry to contemplate it. We never heard from him again. Then the President sent his bodyguards to break out of the catering entrance. That led to a hectic escape from Moscow.

We dodged Russian Hunting Patrols(1 deaf horseman, 1 blind KGB agent and 1 mute Spetznaz commando) and managed to get into a small coastal village in time for the Night Eagle's ship to pick us up.

Peter and Ragnar are demanding concessions in the 1000s of gold in order to "forget this travesty ever happened". Let's face it England - if we desire peace, the time has passed to prepare for war.

OOC: From now on, there will usually be 1 or 2 random events with any update. Be careful when you wish for one

- Lighthearter

 

[Whosit]

Peter and Ragnar are demanding concessions in the 1000s of gold in order to "forget this travesty ever happened". Let's face it England - if we desire peace, the time has passed to prepare for war.

*Ominous music plays* Dum DUM DUUUUMMMM!

Thanks for the great write-up, Lighthearter. It sounds like this is going to give us all something to think about.