Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[Aysee]

Last I remember, I asked for the slavery idea to be put to a vote. Unless Lighthearter read it wrong and adopted it anyways...

 

[SanePerson]

Don't forget that the MP has ALWAYS been against slavery.

Yes, I'm back! And after next week, I should be Realpolitiking more or less fulltime.

 

[MathNerd]

Look!!!

Another party supporting the opposition views and disagreeing with their coalition!!!!! Up goes the OSR!!!

Anyway, negotiations have not been too productive lately, and I'm hoping that there is at least some way we could negotiate our way to a religion. Whosit and I are having trouble finding anywhere we both agree on. I'm not wanting to give up much power, and Whosit wants to limit the opposition's strength.

 

[W|M]

Bottom line is that we need CoL or Theo ASAP.

 

[MathNerd]

We're leaning towards the Theo side, its a lot easier to bulb.

 

[Aysee]

@SanePerson: But the MP holds that the people are secondary in importance. Slavery is a quick way to eliminate unhappiness. If you eliminate unhappiness that makes research easier. Doesn't the Modernizational Party agree with that?

 

[W|M]

oooooo...infighting...

 

[MathNerd]

Aysee, you are WRONG. In this situation, a larger city is always better or equal to a smaller one. If a size 7 city has one unhappiness, its a lot better than a size 5 city and better than a size 6 city because as soon as a happiness resource is hooked up, the seventh tile can be worked.

 

[Whosit]

Aysee, you are WRONG. In this situation, a larger city is always better or equal to a smaller one. If a size 7 city has one unhappiness, its a lot better than a size 5 city and better than a size 6 city because as soon as a happiness resource is hooked up, the seventh tile can be worked.

I have to disagree. Having any unhappiness in a city is not optimal for several reasons. The maintenance costs for larger cities is higher, so you are paying more for unproductive citizens; that unhappy citizen eats food, so you have to arrange tiles to account for that, when a more optimal arrangement could be selected otherwise. Unhappy citizens are resource drains. Your scenario is only optimal if you could be assured that the extra happiness would come within a few turns of growing into unhappiness, but I don't think we're in a position to immediately connect any of our happiness resources.

Whipping unhappy citizens is good because you're essentially getting something for "nothing," aside from the food collected to grow that citizen.

 

[Aysee]

Still...give your reason why we shouldn't adopt slavery, Opposition.

 

[MathNerd]

I have to disagree. Having any unhappiness in a city is not optimal for several reasons. The maintenance costs for larger cities is higher, so you are paying more for unproductive citizens; that unhappy citizen eats food, so you have to arrange tiles to account for that, when a more optimal arrangement could be selected otherwise. Unhappy citizens are resource drains. Your scenario is only optimal if you could be assured that the extra happiness would come within a few turns of growing into unhappiness, but I don't think we're in a position to immediately connect any of our happiness resources.

Whipping unhappy citizens is good because you're essentially getting something for "nothing," aside from the food collected to grow that citizen.

OOC:

I hoped you wouldn't get into this because you're so knowledgeable!!!

Yes, unhappy citizens do drain resources, but in my games, I usually switch to HR or hook up happiness resources quickly enough for whipping to disadvantage me. For this reason, I usually do not whip unless:

1) I'm in war or something and need units fast
2) I'm in a race for a wonder
3) All of the new tiles I would be able to work with an extra pop are really crappy and I am doing a no specialist variant or something.

IC: AND WE SHOULDN'T ADOPT SLAVERY BECAUSE IT'S UNFAIR!!! I believe that all living things are equal. In what way is a slave's life any less useful than a master's life?

EDIT: And we don't have very many cities that are above their happy cap, anyway.

 

[Whosit]

OOC:

I hoped you wouldn't get into this because you're so knowledgeable!!!

You cannot hide from the truth.

Yes, unhappy citizens do drain resources, but in my games, I usually switch to HR or hook up happiness resources quickly enough for whipping to disadvantage me. For this reason, I usually do not whip unless:

1) I'm in war or something and need units fast
2) I'm in a race for a wonder
3) All of the new tiles I would be able to work with an extra pop are really crappy and I am doing a no specialist variant or something.

We are quite some time from Hereditary Rule, so that doesn't help us; the only happiness resources we have the technology to connect are in Iberia, where we have no Workers, and currently do not have a Galley available to transport them there. Also, that one Barbarian would kill them or pillage the improvements if we can't deal with it.

Strange as it may sound, whipping can help a city grow faster, even if there are improved tiles to grow into. The best example is whipping a Granary as soon as you are able to, because the Granary will double the subsequent growth of the city. Also, the greater the food bonuses available to the city, the less the lost population matters because they will all grow back that much more quickly. I generally whip early and often, usually infrastructure projects. That way, the benefits accrue much more quickly.

IC: AND WE SHOULDN'T ADOPT SLAVERY BECAUSE IT'S UNFAIR!!! I believe that all living things are equal. In what way is a slave's life any less useful than a master's life?

EDIT: And we don't have very many cities that are above their happy cap, anyway.

You are quite correct. A slave's life is no less useful than the master's (although, remember, I am not proposing hereditary slavery or any permanent slave "caste," so I do not see any "masters" per se), but a slave's life is useful in a different way than that of law-abiding citizens. Rather than spend years of their lives locked up, sitting in a cell, they can provide cheap manual labor when the need is great. If a few of them perish in the process, well, I have already said that they will have given their lives to a greater cause.

And, as I explained above, waiting until a city is near or above the Happy Cap is not one of the prerequisites for deciding when to whip. I usually try to time it for maximum overflow, so that each life lost provides maximum benefit. See? I can be generous, too.

 

[arya126]

Screw you super fast typing M************.

Im grounded from the computer for a few days and im stuck with 10 pages to read and 2 PM's. Seriously? Now i realize what people had been complaining about before. Dont worry, i think im back for awhile now. Give me a few hours to ctach up though. From the PM's, i gather that things are not going well.

 

[Aysee]

Yay!! Arya's back!! Now I'm not stuck with a job I never wanted!! Okay, arya, what's your plan of action?

 

[Aysee]

BASIC SUMMARY: We debated the techs to research for a bit. The plan is now to research religion, religion not decided yet. Now, we're in an all-out debate on slavery.

 

[MathNerd]

Arya, good thing you came back today. Otherwise, you would have lost your position as Prime Minister.

The religion is almost definitely going to be Theo, it's much quicker than CoL.

I would rather spend years locked up in a cell rather than weeks working my butt off and then dying. In my opinion, a life is the most important thing one can have.

 

[W|M]

What MN said.

 

[Whosit]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, especially the few who have forfeited their right to live as they please by doing evil deeds.

 

[Nukeknockout]

@Whosit:I agree completely.the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few,or the one.that's actually the entire logic and reason behind us politicians being in power.isn't it?

 

[MathNerd]

Wait, wait, wait!!

A granary is NOT a need.

To be able to live IS.