Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[arya126]

My process of creating a new plan for the next turnset was interupted by YOU RAVUS. I will start again tomorrow.

I proclaim the position of the president (and hope the rest of the adminstration will follow suit) to be ANTI-REVOLUTIONARY.

Well i wish them luck in Wales. But i would like to mention next time i see them that i would like some sort of communication with them in times of emergencies, or just for routine things like promotions. Also, well i give my praise to the captain of the morning glory then. Maybe in the future we can give him a fleet of commando ships and make him a commander.

 

[arya126]

And i know im not a politician. But i have alot more insight as to what they do. I have a relative or 2 either runnming for some kind of office, or holding some sort of office. Not federal, but still government. I would love to rant about this, but we have more important things to say.

 

[ilduce349]

I support MathNerd, at the moment the president has to much power
(would you count this as my 4th betrayal MathNerd?)

 

[mechaerik]

Edit: Please no talking about nailing me to a cross The MiB will just start a riot.

I thought it was suitable considering you founded Christianity.

I will not declare myself anything at this point. I feel it prudent to stay neutral.

 

[MathNerd]

Ilduce: No. As a matter of fact, I'll reduce it to two betrayals if you don't leave again.

mechaerik: Fine by me!

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Actually the situation we are in now is quite politically acurate:

The President has full proxy power, he CAN ignore people if he so chooses.

The Ministers have power over their fields. Wether they are advisors or are granted proxy power is up the president, but either way anything they do can be taken back by the president.

The Opposition has no legal powers, they are limited to public speaking and subterfuge.

The whole aim in this political arena is to CONVINCE people. For instance if Ayra abuses his powers significantly his party could turn against him. If that happens then a vote of no confidence could oust him from power, allowing a more agreeing president. A president is only as powerful as those behind him. Technically a coalition could split apart while in power. Now that would be a true crisis.

The reason Ayra feels confident to ignore the opposition is because he managed to get such a majority government. Even if he ignores the opposition, as long as even only 2/3 rds of his administration agree with him he will not be ousted from power.

Also the reason EP and military law is so powerful is because it stops any power the ministers and opposition have COMPLETLY. Thus people should be cautious about granting a ruler that sort of power.

EDIT: I assume that the opposition meter is raised from a vocal opposition because it signifies the possibility a ousting. If a vote of no-confidence is called then the vocal opposition will definatly vote. But the adminstration would have to round up it's own members to resist...

Also... oops. Sorry for causing choas during your planning phase Ayra

 

[MathNerd]

But Ravus, in England today, the PM cannot dictate the country like Arya can. He needs approval of the parliament, and there is no such system in RP (Realpolitik). Which is why I'm starting this revolutionary movement in the first place.

EDIT: Ravus's administration was much more liberal. He ALWAYS considered the opinions of others. However, Arya, I am disappointed in you because you have already went against the wishes of the people. I don't really care whether or not Ilduce joins my coalition, because I feel that it is enough of an advancement to get people to see through all of this talk that we have been making and realize what is the truth.

 

[arya126]

In the usa, the president technically has the final say as he can veto. Though congress can override it. But thats RL. This is realpolitik. A revolutionary reform that you are talking about is taking too much power away from the opposition and the administration and depends on compomosing. Compromising rarely pays off in the end, because neither side gets what they want, and normally what they do get conflicts with what the opther gets.

So i do oppose it. And i do listen to people. Just not radicals like MN and WIM. I refuse to listen to them as i resolutly stand up to their radical views. Maybe they arent called radical in europe, but in the usa this is very radical what you 2 are saying. Just look at WIMs party description. He wants to legalize drugs which i presume to be illegal drugs like crack and heroine. Really? Im supposed to compromise with that?

More on this stuff tomorow.

 

[MathNerd]

People's views can differ. And even people from your own coalition are not recommending your choice. We may be radicals in your eyes, but not in the eyes of many.

And we must cooperate if we want a successful nation. We cannot let the world speed by us while we bicker about infighting.

 

[Aysee]

I will stay neutral on the revolutionary issue (for now...)
Before we get too off track here, you think of a second half plan yet, arya? I'll make the ministers round tommorow if you need assistance.

 

[ilduce349]

Ilduce: No. As a matter of fact, I'll reduce it to two betrayals if you don't leave again.

Who ever said I joined your coalition. i am just supporting you in this revolution

 

[Whosit]

My main concern is to know where arya is planning to plant future cities. The new city in Europe is not where I thought it was going (I must have missed when he decided not to found a city near the wines). Personally, I think that the new city position is weaker, long-term, but I'll work with the hand I am dealt.

I'd like a bit more information regarding what is going on in the cities, but somehow I do not believe that is forthcoming. Playing blind is certainly a new experience.

The only other comments from the Interior Minister at this time is that I think we need more Workers and Troops, not more Settlers. I'm honestly surprised that Julius hasn't found us to be prime pickings already.

As for the new debate issue: I am in favor of everyone adopting a more cooperative attitude. I don't know what this "revolution" will actually result in, details wise, so I cannot lend it my support at this time.

 

[ilduce349]

I agree with whosit, over expansion in the begining is the best way to kill the economy. WORKER, WORKER, WORKER! That should be our to build list.

 

[W|M]

He wants to legalize drugs which i presume to be illegal drugs like crack and heroine.

I meant Class C stuff like pot. Also, I'm a REVOLUTIONARY, though we should get on with managing the nation well.

 

[ilduce349]

Compromising rarely pays off

Politics is about compromise. As is stands most people seem to be against how the country is being run. At the moment we believe you have to much power and want to spread it among the administration and the opposition. I think this is a fare claim as this is a democracy, if one man gets to powerful we will loose everything this country stands for. Remember, "power corrupts".

Arya, at the moment PCE isn't against the modernizational, we just want change and you don't seem to be providing it, as soon as you start to listen to our demands are come up with a compromise I will be a revolutionary.

I agree to the idea (can't remember who posted it) that we should first try to settle this matter peacefully, in a PM between all the party leaders, but at the moment it doesn't seem like this is going to happen.

And i do listen to people

unfortunately about 1/10 of the people are WIM and MN, their the voters so technically speaking you are going against the peoples wishes.

@LH: The length of the thread has double in arya rules, how many turns to the election?

 

[Cull]

I'd like a bit more information regarding what is going on in the cities, but somehow I do not believe that is forthcoming. Playing blind is certainly a new experience.

The only other comments from the Interior Minister at this time is that I think we need more Workers and Troops, not more Settlers. I'm honestly surprised that Julius hasn't found us to be prime pickings already.

As for the new debate issue: I am in favor of everyone adopting a more cooperative attitude. I don't know what this "revolution" will actually result in, details wise, so I cannot lend it my support at this time.

Bold for agreement. Also would like to note that OT stuff goes to OT forum. How does the American current government relate to Realpolitik in the way it was put forward(Arya I think), as well as the rest of the spammy OT stuff. Since I've said this enough times already recently, here's a link just in case.

Link:http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18

 

[arya126]

This thread gets OT a little bit. Deal with it. Its not that much. Once you start reading a post you can tell, and if it is, skip it.

Also i will take that into thought about no more settlers. I am just looking for the long term. I didnt want Rome controlling germany in the late game. Turns out my efforts were in vain. I dont think we will be settling many cities after this, but i think we still have a settler left.

I will work on the plan today. I will send a copy to advisors who want to give advice before i give it to LH.

CULL- MN started the american government. I just responded to it. If you are going to comment on something, please read the topic.

Just because they vote, do not mean they represent those people Ilduce. They do not know what they are thinking since they are electronic. So they have no right to say they represent those people. I think their votes more as a vote on a bill in congress.

I just dont think as much change is nessacary as you want it too. The president gets the final say. The advisors advise, and the president takes it into account. The opposition can do whatever the hell they want. They cant affect my policies, so i have every right to ignore them. My administration was voted into power was it not? So if i was voted in with my advisors, why should the opposiiton still have part-time control of how we do things. They are the minority.

And even pot shouldnt be legalized. Really? You want people getting high before they go to work, then they make a mistake that causes someone to declare war on us?

WHOSIT- I think we still have a settler left. Any ideas where to put it? I was thinking Iceland if we can get there...

 

[Whosit]

I am just looking for the long term. I didnt want Rome controlling germany in the late game. Turns out my efforts were in vain.

The answer is simple: If Rome settles Germany, we take it from them. That is a much better solution that settling weak cities that will fall under Rome's cultural influence.

I just dont think as much change is nessacary as you want it too. The president gets the final say. The advisors advise, and the president takes it into account. The opposition can do whatever the hell they want. They cant affect my policies, so i have every right to ignore them. My administration was voted into power was it not? So if i was voted in with my advisors, why should the opposiiton still have part-time control of how we do things. They are the minority.

Just be careful that you do not alienate your allies, or you will find yourself put out of power. Those who are given power are expected to use it responsibly; if anyone comes to believe that the president is abusing his position, he will lose support in the next election. In that respect, wielding power is a delicate balancing act.

WHOSIT- I think we still have a settler left. Any ideas where to put it? I was thinking Iceland if we can get there...

I think filling in Iberia would be a wiser course of action. As far as I know, Iceland is not in imminent danger of being lost to us. Of course, I still want to see Chinook burned down. Settling between the Silver and Gold is a stronger play because the city can work both of those resources, feed itself with the Fish (which otherwise goes to waste) and become a pretty decent commerce city that still has hills for production. So I suppose it's a hybrid, but being able to grab two of the most powerful happiness resources in the game is +win.

I would still replant Chinook 1 tile north-east of the current position. With Clams and Crabs, it could become a pretty decent specialist city, although we would have to build and/or whip some cultural buildings (Library, not sure what else we have access to right now) to make sure that it is not overtaken by Rome's cities.

Of course, I still advocate wresting central Europe from Rome's control in the near-mid-term. I think that will be the only way to ensure our continental safety and to ensure that the cities we have founded there will be able to develop to their maximum potential.

 

[Cull]

This thread gets OT a little bit. Deal with it. Its not that much. Once you start reading a post you can tell, and if it is, skip it.

CULL- MN started the american government. I just responded to it. If you are going to comment on something, please read the topic.

Just because they vote, do not mean they represent those people Ilduce. They do not know what they are thinking since they are electronic. So they have no right to say they represent those people. I think their votes more as a vote on a bill in congress.

I just dont think as much change is nessacary as you want it too. The president gets the final say. The advisors advise, and the president takes it into account. The opposition can do whatever the hell they want. They cant affect my policies, so i have every right to ignore them. My administration was voted into power was it not? So if i was voted in with my advisors, why should the opposiiton still have part-time control of how we do things. They are the minority.

I pointed you out because your post was JUST responding to MN's OT talk, as opposed to MN's OT plus normal Realpolitik stuff. I do read. And unlike others, I make my opinions based on fact, not opinion.

Still neutral on the power of the opposistion/admistration, and the so-called "Revoluntaries".

Geesh, Ravus, I should have listened to your advice. Now I'm stuck back in again.

 

[ilduce349]

Just because they vote, do not mean they represent those people Ilduce. They do not know what they are thinking since they are electronic. So they have no right to say they represent those people. I think their votes more as a vote on a bill in congress.

Congress doesn't decide who becomes president during an election.

I just dont think as much change is nessacary as you want it too. The president gets the final say. The advisors advise, and the president takes it into account. The opposition can do whatever the hell they want. They cant affect my policies, so i have every right to ignore them. My administration was voted into power was it not? So if i was voted in with my advisors, why should the opposiiton still have part-time control of how we do things. They are the minority.

Currently in America or England the presidents power is not absolute. In America if he wants anything to be accomplished he needs congress on his side. In England he needs parliament. Even if he has a majority government the people in his party might not necessarily agree with him. The problem with these governments is there inefficient, but as I am role playing I am supporting them as they give power to the president when he needs it, and takes away his power when he abuses it. Also

Elections Status:

Party Tallies:
Green Party: 2
Educated Party: 3
Imperial Party: 2
Modernizational Party: 7
Liberal Marxist Party: 6
People's Consortium of England: 2
Stonehenge Monks: 4

Coalition Tallies:

Green Philosophers(west india man/MathNerd): 5
Coalition of the Future(arya126/Aysee): 17
Unaligned: 4

Look at the election, you don't have a majority government, if me and whosit left you, we would split parliament 50-50. You have to listen to your people, as this is a democracy. You work for the people not the people work for you. The PCE is a social conservatism party, we do not want to live in a country where the president has full power between every election. Also in this government every president seems to retire after one term. So for all they care they could up the country and retire nicely. The current political situation is not working. I dont want to be against you arya, but I fear I will have to be if their is any chance of change coming to England. I would rather this revoloution be a silent one, where the leaders of the rebels (Me, MN and WIM) can have a discussion with you and settle this revolt peacefully.

WHOSIT- I think we still have a settler left. Any ideas where to put it? I was thinking Iceland if we can get there...

I agree with WHOSIT on putting it inbetween the gold and the silver.

Also where is the Christian holy city?