Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Earlier this thread, I proposed the bonus was improved considering the number of cities you had in each continent (to sinergize with the settling/conquest gameplay). Other options might be interesting as well. Your suggestion made me think about a malus too: block Spain's trade with any civ with a different religion.

The yields increasing for each domestic city on a different continent definitely works.

Besides an extra for monopolies, Netherlands should have as well some way to increase trade route slots. E.g +1 trade route per continent settled, or +1 trade route received from a foreign civilization (maybe giving them a bonus in exchange - ¿same or part of the culture output Netherlands gains?)

Since they are already incentivized to building harbors maybe their shipyards could gain +1 trade route capacity in addition to a product slot.

 

[Linklite]

Since they are already incentivized to building harbors maybe their shipyards could gain +1 trade route capacity in addition to a product slot.

Didn't they do that with England and thought it was too OP?

 

[Josephias]

You're describig respectively Victoria and João III abilities. I'm all for ways to increase trade route capacities but we ought to find new ways. Maybe a new trade route for each stock exchange? Since it's late in the tech tree it's not quite overpowered. I don't know. Honestly, @pokiehl Civ Expanded mod has a good idea, +1 trade capacity for each Mercantile City-STate you're suzerain of?

You're true about Victoria (I missed track of all changes England has undergone), but I won't say the second option is Joao... Joao gets trade routes by meeting civs, this would be getting trade routes by managing other civs to trade with you (so it's more similar to Cleo's food x gold exchange, or Sankore's science plus to both sides of the route). I thought of that because it would fit Wilhelmina's agenda -> now, she would habe a reason to be mad at you by not trading with her, as she will be losing not only culture, but trade route capacity.

Nevertheless, considering a +1 route per stock exchange could be neat or, maybe something like +1 route per bank if you have a dock district with a lighthouse (in short, having Netherland's banks work like the Guilded Vault by default). @Alexander's Hetaroi : I prefer giving the route to the bank instead of the shipyard (yet conditioning it to having a dock), as it would reflect Netherlands financial history/power. Shipyards could still be used for Monopolies

 

[Aurelesk]

What are the odds that districts will be rethought?

I always hated the minor adjacency bonuses. If a Industrial Zone is next to an other district, a Lumber Mill, and a Mine, it has 3 minor adjacency but 0 Production. Minor adjacency bonuses should give +0.5 yield. In this case: +1.5 Production.

Adjacency bonuses are getting stronger and stronger. Why are Geothermal Fissure and Reef gives +2 Science?! It is huge! Even I understand why Reef got it (make coastal more relevant). To the point of having major adjacency bonus from Plantations for a Campus (→ Observatory), or from Strategic ressource for a Industrial Zone (→ Oppidum) feel like a downgrade in comparison.

What are the odds they change the adjacency bonuses to districts?

For example, Campus could have their +1 from Mountain removed, but gain +2 from Volcano instead. Even more: Industrial Zone could have their +1 from Strategic Ressource removed, but the Encampment could now have Production as adjacency and get that +1 from Strategic Ressource. Here some ideas below. It is just a draft: I didn't think this through. It is just a way to picture it:

New adjacency draft:

• Campus: +2 from Volcano and Spaceport, +1 from Reef and Geothermal Fissure, and +0.5 from Rainforest and districts. Change: adds Volcano and Spaceport, remove Mountain, and downgrade Reef and Geothermal Fissure.
• Theatre Square: +2 from World Wonder, +1 from EC/WP and Plantation, and +0.5 from Marsh and districts. Change: adds Plantation and Marsh, and downgrade EC/WP.
• Holy Site: +2 from natural Wonder, +1 from Mountain, and +0.5 from Woods and districts. Change: nothing.
• Encampment: +2 from Aerodrome, +1 from Strategic ressource and Camp, and +0.5 from Airstrips, Forts and Missile Silos. Change: have adjacency bonuses!
• Commercial Hub: +2 from Harbor and Canal, +1 from Oasis and Luxury ressource, and +0.5 from river edge, Mountain tunnel and districts. Change: adds Canal, Oasis, Luxury ressource, downgrade/change river to river edge.
• Harbor: +2 from City-Center, +1 from Sea ressource, and +0.5 from districts. Change: nothing.
• Industrial Zone: +2 from Aqueduct and Dam, +1 from Quarry and Geothermal Plant, and +0.5 from Solar Farm, Wind Farm, Offshore Wind Farm and districts. Changes: adds all Power improvement, remove Canal, Mine and Lumber Mill.

Many unique districts are too powerful. Why are they half price? After all, all the unique building are not half price. The last unique districts show us a trend: they have brand new adjacency that are working differently than the original district. Seowon get the Science from the start, Suguba get the +2 from Holy Site instead of the Harbor, Observatory and Oppidum have their own set of adjacency, while the Thành is getting Culture as adjacency.

What if all the new districts either have brand new adjacency bonus, or even new yield?

For example, the Cothon could have Production instead of Gold, the Lavra could get +2 from Theatre Square and +0.5 from Tundra and Woods but the problem of Lavra is not the adjacency but the GWAM, the Hansa would... probably need to be less powerful by removing the green district adjacency (for the Commercial Hub) and the mine/lumber mill (for the ressource), and so on... The Observatory should at least give a unique effect: Suguba has a 20% discount, Lavra has GWAM and land grabbing, Oppidum has defense, Cothon has settler production, RNDY has some continental clunky absurdities, Acropolies has Envoy, Street Carnival has a project... It could at least give a Prophet point or something.


Lastly: some specialty districts like the Aerodrome or the Preserve do not have a domestic / international Trade Route yield. They could have a +1 Production / +1 Production for the former, and +1 Food / +1 Faith for the latter.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Didn't they do that with England and thought it was too OP?

Maybe? There's been so many England reworks it's hard to keep track of.

Nevertheless, considering a +1 route per stock exchange could be neat or, maybe something like +1 route per bank if you have a dock district with a lighthouse (in short, having Netherland's banks work like the Guilded Vault by default). @Alexander's Hetaroi : I prefer giving the route to the bank instead of the shipyard (yet conditioning it to having a dock), as it would reflect Netherlands financial history/power. Shipyards could still be used for Monopolies

I like giving the Netherlands a "Gulided Vault" ability better. I initially thought that's what Portugal might have got when we saw all those trade routes early game.

Many unique districts are too powerful. Why are they half price? After all, all the unique building are not half price. The last unique districts show us a trend: they have brand new adjacency that are working differently than the original district. Seowon get the Science from the start, Suguba get the +2 from Holy Site instead of the Harbor, Observatory and Oppidum have their own set of adjacency, while the Thành is getting Culture as adjacency.

It probably won't happen but now with the Thanh getting culture as an Encampment it would be cool, and historically accurate, if the Seowon yielded 4 culture instead of science.
A campus replacement yielding culture while the buildings yielding science would still make them a science powerhouse, but give them more flexibility considering Seondeok ability also applies to extra culture yields in cities with a governor established.

If not in Civ 6, hopefully that opens up a possibility for Civ 7 as a campus replacement that provides culture instead of science.

 

[Menocchio]

My potentially controversial opinion is that unique buildings, like unique districts, should also cost less than their ordinary counterparts.

 

[Linklite]

My potentially controversial opinion is that unique buildings, like unique districts, should also cost less than their ordinary counterparts.

I haventdone the maths, ut on the face of it I agree. I imagine that unique buildings are less of an improvement than unique districts over their respective base construction. As a result, they should at least get the prod reduction as well to counter that reduction in improvement.

 

[Caprikel]

Adjacency bonuses are getting stronger and stronger. Why are Geothermal Fissure and Reef gives +2 Science?! It is huge! Even I understand why Reef got it (make coastal more relevant). To the point of having major adjacency bonus from Plantations for a Campus (→ Observatory), or from Strategic ressource for a Industrial Zone (→ Oppidum) feel like a downgrade in comparison.

What are the odds they change the adjacency bonuses to districts?

For example, Campus could have their +1 from Mountain removed, but gain +2 from Volcano instead. Even more: Industrial Zone could have their +1 from Strategic Ressource removed, but the Encampment could now have Production as adjacency and get that +1 from Strategic Ressource. Here some ideas below. It is just a draft: I didn't think this through. It is just a way to picture it:

I hope you don't mind if I offer some critics and suggestions in response to your ideas.

For the Campus I agree that mountains are a bit too much, especially considering how geothermal vents are almost always going to be near enough to mountains for campuses to stack those bonuses. However I think removing the mountain bonus entirely would be a bit much, so I would instead change it to a minor adjacency for mountains, and have volcanoes give a standard adjacency, along with counting to the mountain adjacency as well. This would change it so that a campus next to a volcano and mountain would still give +2 as it does now, but a campus surrounded by 5 mountains would only give +2 now instead of +5. I would otherwise keep reefs and G. vents untouched as they're rare enough to justify having major adjacencies. I do agree that a major adjacency for the space port would make sense, both thematically and because it's late enough in the game that it wouldn't make a major impact.

For the Theater Square I disagree with changing the EC/WP to standard adjacencies, since those adjacency bonuses are an important buff for the EC/WP, and allow TS adjacency to be less dependent on circumstances outside of your control, like with Wonder placement, or rather being able to get wonders at all. I'm also not sure how thematic marshes or plantations would be for TS adjacency, and personally I prefer having more control with EC/WP adjacency than with relying on rng. Between wonders and EC/WPs, the general theme of TS adjacency is manmade locations of cultural importance, with wonders of course being culturally significant, and with EC/WPs being places that would be significant to the culture of a city/nation, since entertainment is an important part of culture. If Firaxis wanted to add a new adjacency to the EC/WP that kept with the current theme in order to balance out nerfing the EC/WP adjacency then giving the TS a campus adjacency would also make sense, given that universities aren't exclusively about scientific development, but are also arts and other culturally relevant subjects. This would be a decent way to represent that without giving the Campus district an actual culture bonus.

For the Commercial Hub I agree with adding Canal adjacency, but disagree with the river change. The whole theme of the CH adjacency is that it is rewarded by being in locations where trade would naturally occur, so where there is access to faster transportation. Having them get a river bonuses that depends on how many loops of a river is around it doesn't make sense, since just being adjacent to any part of it will give you access to transportation of the river. Being surrounded by more of the river doesn't make it any more useful for transportation, so it doesn't thematically make sense for the bonus. However, if we are to take this transportation theme to its logical conclusion, having a commercial hub adjacent to two different rivers should give it an extra major adjacency bonus, since that CH would have access to the trade from two different major transportation sources. Additionally, Aerodromes would make a lot of sense to give CHs adjacency, since they act as a source of trade like rivers or harbors do. I also agree that an Oasis should be an adjacency source, since in large deserts they act as important stops for traders along their journey. And if they really wanted to go even further, they could include a bonus for being on a railroad that is connected to another city. Between the different sources of adjacency for the CH, there wouldn't be a lot of overlap, so I don't see a need to try to reduce any of the adjacency yields for CHs, especially since 1 gold isn't as valuable as 1 science, or 1 production.

I'm not very sure if they would add encampment adjacency, but if they did the bonuses you listed would at least make sense thematically as being militaristically relevant adjacencies. However the main purpose of encampment placement is to be placed in a strategically defensive position, so I wouldn't be a fan of strategic resources as an adjacency since it would make encampment placement be about adjacency instead of being about being in a defensive location. Anything that can be built and is militarily relevant would be fine for adjacency, but anything map dependent wouldn't make sense in this case.

 

[Isengardtom]

As long as they stay away from Eleanor’s great work loyalty ability I’m happy

I think the games modes definitely need rebalancing but I’m assuming that’s a given

 

[Sostratus]

I always hated the minor adjacency bonuses. If a Industrial Zone is next to an other district, a Lumber Mill, and a Mine, it has 3 minor adjacency but 0 Production. Minor adjacency bonuses should give +0.5 yield. In this case: +1.5 Production.

At this point I’m not sure if they can fix it. It’s literally programmed as +1 for every 2, not +0.5 each. Board game ruleset, I guess.
It drives me crazy too.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Rebalance two thirds of civilizations...starting with Portugal. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to play as Portugal, it is just they appear to have gone overboard with this seafaring civilization. It will be interesting to see if they raise up the less favoured (typically non-DLC) civilizations in line with the DLC civilizations, or reduce the bonuses of the DLC civilizations.

Poor old Scotland, definitely needs a leg up.

 

[SemiLazyGamer]

It's not a major rebalancing, but I think regular Catherine should be able to use Spies on allies, especially with the relatively recent changes.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

Rebalance the Civs that had decent abilities at launch but have gone wayside. Nerfs are never popular but buffs are. If everyone's super...than no one will be XD

One's I'd like to see given some kind of buff are:

1. Scotland (Make their UA stronger and rework their LUA to give them +100 when they receive a declaration of war like Curtin)
2. Netherlands (Give them buffed DOMESTIC trade routes. More gold, loyalty, and culture...and this should increase with age. Gives them a decent buff while keeps them distinct from Portugal. And yeah make polders 3 land tiles OR another polder.)
3. Georgia (Make the UB medieval walls. Just do it...nobody builds Renaissance walls...even with their bonus. Also make the Khevsur able to be prebuilt from warriors.)
4. England (Buff the Sea Dogs' ability to capture ships, and add a bigger loyalty boost to the RND)
5. Gandhi' India (Give diplomatic favor per met civ...not just civ who has founded a religion. Keep the the +5 faith too as it's so underwhelmin. Also make it so that diplo favor is +100% when someone declares war on Gandhi).
6. Egypt (+1 food from floodplains to add to Cleo's super meh ability)
7. Cree (+2 trade routes at pottery [Or +1 at another tech] and make it so that trade routes in neutral territory cannot be plundered)
8. Khmer (Aqueducts get a +20% discount and provide a major adjacency bonus to HS, CH, and TS)
9. Mapuche (No idea...but they need a big buff)
10. Spain (Needs a complete overhaul as mentioned)

 

[Menocchio]

Now that you bring up Sea Dogs, my specific suggestion for them is a bit tricksy: they could do loyalty damage on naval victories/pillages as per Lautaro's ability. This would be a small "nice thing" for Victoria, but for Eleanor it could be delightfully devilish indeed.

 

[RuneMask]

Thread is too long - where can I find a complete list of changes that are sure to come? I hope balance will turn out well
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[Menocchio]

There is none whatsoever. We here are simply philosophers seeking after truth, or perhaps sophists. Only April's coming will enlighten us truly.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Thread is too long - where can I find a complete list of changes that are sure to come? I hope balance will turn out well

As @Menocchio said, we are just simply wandering travelers on the internet, doggedly pursuing knowledge of things to come even though we know that knowledge will come eventually, for we are not satiated by this. We must learn more, and make our experiences and knowledge that of Ibn Battuta, Thomas Aquinas, Xuanzang, and all the other great learners of history.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

Now that you bring up Sea Dogs, my specific suggestion for them is a bit tricksy: they could do loyalty damage on naval victories/pillages as per Lautaro's ability. This would be a small "nice thing" for Victoria, but for Eleanor it could be delightfully devilish indeed.

Lol might give English Eleanor a more supple reason for existing mechanic-wise. With GS changes for England her ability really doesn't help...at all. It's so niche at best...but give her a UU that jives better with it and it might help

 

[bbbt]

Thread is too long - where can I find a complete list of changes that are sure to come? I hope balance will turn out well

No concrete details yet. This entire thread is basically just us doing what your user name says not to do

 

[Abaxial]

Bear in mind that how a civ plays for a human and how it plays for an AI can be quite different. Take Babylon, for instance. In a player's hand it is awesome, because the player knows not to research a topic that has an easy-to-get eureka. For instance - why bother researching masonry, when all you have to do is build a quarry? But the AI doesn't know this. In games I have played where Babylon is an AI civ, it hasn't done very well.

So there is a danger in "rebalancing". If you were to say "Babylon is too OP, it needs nerfing", that might hamstring player-Babylon a bit but it might wreck AI-Babylon.