Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

[Menocchio]

Babylon faces two chief bottlenecks: strategic resources, and gold. For most civilisations establishing control of resources is part of the mid-late game flow, as nitre, coal, etc. are gradually unlocked and in the meantime they can consolidate their power in order to be able to secure those resources as they become available. For Babylon, it becomes much more of a mad dash, especially as oil and aluminium have a tendency to crop up in awkward places. Very often a player finds these resources in their territory purely by chance, but less so for Babylon.

Gold is probably the bigger limiting factor, as unlike much of the rest of Babylon's gameplay it scales more slowly, and they have few ways of accelerating it as some other civilisations do. As a result, it is easy to make the mistake while playing Babylon of running too far ahead: you get so many new buildings and units and of course you want to make them at once, but your income cannot support it. Building maintenance is an especially silent killer, as people definitely think of it less than unit maintenance.

So, any balance to Babylon I think would take aim not at their Eurekas, but at their feet of clay/gold: Babylon ideally should be a balancing act between crashing forward technologically and ensuring your infrastructure can actually support your advancement. This would not even have to be a Babylon-specific balance change either: gold inflation in the late-game is rampant already, and so a gradual increase in unit and building maintenance post-Classical would blunt the Babylonian snowball, I think.

As an aside, I know many people also complain that Babylon lacks much flavour to make them feel uniquely "Babylonian" in design, so here is another suggested change: let cities with a Palgum have farms on desert tiles adjacent to fresh water. This way, Babylonian irrigation as represented by the Palgum could feel very concrete. As a consequence perhaps Babylon could have a desert river or floodplains start bias, but the kinder part of me thinks that might just be a bit too mean.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As an aside, I know many people also complain that Babylon lacks much flavour to make them feel uniquely "Babylonian" in design, so here is another suggested change: let cities with a Palgum have farms on desert tiles adjacent to fresh water. This way, Babylonian irrigation as represented by the Palgum could feel very concrete. As a consequence perhaps Babylon could have a desert river or floodplains start bias, but the kinder part of me thinks that might just be a bit too mean.

The problem with that is Mesopotamia was a fertile valley, and not really desert like with the only desert being near the north far away from Babylonia.
Maybe it could be similar to the new Etemananki wonder, which was located in Babyon, and it can give you more food and production on marsh tiles in the city as well, giving them a bias towards floodplains and marsh.

To me that would appreciate it much more than it's current state.

 

[Menocchio]

The problem with that is Mesopotamia was a fertile valley, and not really desert like with the only desert being near the north far away from Babylonia.
Maybe it could be similar to the new Etemananki wonder, which was located in Babyon, and it can give you more food and production on marsh tiles in the city as well, giving them a bias towards floodplains and marsh.

To me that would appreciate it much more than it's current state.

This is true, but this is also Civilisation 6, where Russia and Canada have bonuses to "tundra" terrain when in reality most of these countries are made up of taiga instead, much like all deserts in-game are pop culture's barren sandy wastes instead of reality's scrub vegetation.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This is true, but this is also Civilisation 6, where Russia and Canada have bonuses to "tundra" terrain when in reality most of these countries are made up of taiga instead, much like all deserts in-game are pop culture's barren sandy wastes instead of reality's scrub vegetation.

You might be right. I guess it depends on the TSL location honestly. I haven't extensively looked but if there are more desert tiles around, than marsh, it might not work.

I just looked up a TSL game of Sumeria and there are a lot of desert floodplains, with no marsh around. Maybe time to change up the map types?

 

[Vargas1]

I still think you should be able to "unlock" the technologies, but not be able to build any of the associated units, infrastructure etc. until the other prerequisites are met.

Though I haven't played much myself with Babylon, from observation and hearing discussion what I think might work would be to require the prerequisites only when it comes to units. So you can still rush towards Industrialization in the classical era, etc., but not cranking out archers to get crossbows on turn-30.

 

[Ticio]

Considering many of the Sea Dogs became actual "pirates" towards other nations in the Caribbean, mainly toward the Spanish and the Dutch, I'd like to see them do something similar to actual piracy.

Maybe they could reduce loyalty in a city where the trader originated or a city that they coastal raided.
Or you know just have the ability to raid, and reduce loyalty, without having to declare war which would fit with Eleanor.

In some cases, they attacked trade lines even before war was declare. During the reign of Philip II, english "seadogs" were one of the reasons for the declaration of war against Elizabeth I.
Giving "seadogs" the ability to pillage sea traders from neutral factions could be an homage to this "ability".

It would make GP Francis Drake and Ching Shih a lot more valuable too (right now, I always try to avoid them).

Maybe it could give a "war of retribution" casus belli to the victim, to make it more balanced.

 

[Evie]

This is true, but this is also Civilisation 6, where Russia and Canada have bonuses to "tundra" terrain when in reality most of these countries are made up of taiga instead, much like all deserts in-game are pop culture's barren sandy wastes instead of reality's scrub vegetation.

...and most of the actual populated part are actually actually just plain old grassland forests, hill forests and/or plains...

(A realistic take on Canada would be as the *forest* civ, not the tundra one - lumber trade and fur trade utterly dominate Canadian history.)

 

[Menocchio]

...and most of the actual populated part are actually actually just plain old grassland forests, hill forests and/or plains...

(A realistic take on Canada would be as the *forest* civ, not the tundra one - lumber trade and fur trade utterly dominate Canadian history.)

The developers' lack of culture is shown in their not being familiar with the Log Driver's Waltz!

 

[Evie]

In fairness, that one (and its sister the Blackfy Song) appear to be still under copyright (Wade Hemsworth died in 2002 only!), which Vive la Canadienne is pointedly not (it doesn't appear to have a known author, and its existence is recorded at least as far fack as 1865).

 

[Menocchio]

Alternately: a maritime-oriented Canadian civilisation, and the soundtrack is entirely made of Newfoundland shanties. I am quite sure those ought to be old enough to be outside copyright!

 

[DefiantMars]

This is true, but this is also Civilisation 6, where Russia and Canada have bonuses to "tundra" terrain when in reality most of these countries are made up of taiga instead, much like all deserts in-game are pop culture's barren sandy wastes instead of reality's scrub vegetation.

This is why I hope that the Civ 7 maps will use a slightly more Köppen climate classification accurate system where the base tile is more determined by temperature and elevation. Then Features would get put on them to provide variation. That way we can have things like temperate rainforests, arid grasslands, and highland deserts, more use of marshes. That in addition to navigable river tiles to compliment the current river system I feel that would open up more opportunities for geographically related civ bonuses. But that's a topic for another thread entirely.

...and most of the actual populated part are actually actually just plain old grassland forests, hill forests and/or plains...

(A realistic take on Canada would be as the *forest* civ, not the tundra one - lumber trade and fur trade utterly dominate Canadian history.)

I think there was an attempt to capture that history with the Last Best West boosting Lumber Mills and Camps. I wonder if they could safely drop some of the Tundra requirements?

I take it that the general consensus is still that Four Faces of Peace and the Ice Hockey Rink could use help too, right?

 

[Menocchio]

All of Canada's abilities are clumsy, because they are either useless outside a very specific, limited, and poor terrain type, or only come into effect near the very end of most games. Contrast Russia, which gets free tundra production and faith from turn 1 (meaning tundra is essentially plains minus farms, and an early pantheon) as well as extra tiles in cities everywhere. If Canada had improved lumber mills (gold, culture, housing, for example) and camps in all terrain types, that would help a bit. I used to imagine that combined with earlier forest planting could be interesting, but Vietnam has that already now.

 

[UWHabs]

All of Canada's abilities are clumsy, because they are either useless outside a very specific, limited, and poor terrain type, or only come into effect near the very end of most games. Contrast Russia, which gets free tundra production and faith from turn 1 (meaning tundra is essentially plains minus farms, and an early pantheon) as well as extra tiles in cities everywhere. If Canada had improved lumber mills (gold, culture, housing, for example) and camps in all terrain types, that would help a bit. I used to imagine that combined with earlier forest planting could be interesting, but Vietnam has that already now.

Yeah, the other part of their problem is that one of their selling features (farms on tundra!) is more of a meme than anything useful, since it just takes a horribly unworkable tile and turns it into... a slightly less horrible but still unworkable tile? At the very least, if they gave Canada's tundra farms like a +1 culture, for example, then at least it turns a farmed tundra tile into a 2f/1c tile, which is still frankly pretty unworkable though. Ideally you need to find a way to turn those tiles into a passive benefit, so that you don't need to work the tiles to be able to gain a benefit from it, and then maybe you can start to turn the tide on them.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think there was an attempt to capture that flavor with the Last Best West boosting Lumber Mills and Camps. I wonder if they could safely drop some of the Tundra requirements?

I take it that the general consensus is still that Four Faces of Peace and the Ice Hockey Rink could use help too, right?

I would have much rather Last Best West be this:
Can build farms on hill tiles without Civil Engineering. Plains tiles, Hill tiles, and tiles with woods cost 50% less gold to purchase. On those tiles resources accumulate twice as fast, mines and lumber mills provide extra production, and camps extra food.

At least it's my understanding that Canada's main farming land is in the western provinces whose geography is primarily hilly.

As for the Ice Hockey Rink I'd change the requirement so that it could be built on any tile, except desert, and everything else stays the same still wanting to build it around tundra and an EC.

 

[Menocchio]

Yeah, the other part of their problem is that one of their selling features (farms on tundra!) is more of a meme than anything useful, since it just takes a horribly unworkable tile and turns it into... a slightly less horrible but still unworkable tile? At the very least, if they gave Canada's tundra farms like a +1 culture, for example, then at least it turns a farmed tundra tile into a 2f/1c tile, which is still frankly pretty unworkable though. Ideally you need to find a way to turn those tiles into a passive benefit, so that you don't need to work the tiles to be able to gain a benefit from it, and then maybe you can start to turn the tide on them.

I suppose the idea is that they can, unlike Russia, get housing in tundra regions. As a further bonus, they gain +1 production to lumber mills and mines in tundra, which seems wonderful until one considers that all Russian tundra tiles gain that production without any investment. Camps gain some benefit too and have a pantheon specifically designed to further improve them, but deer could stand to be much more common and camp-improved luxuries are purely a gamble. If all Canadian farms received improved adjacencies separate from technological improvements, that too could make them better. Thankfully, Canada is a nice case where the civilisation has an interesting and unique idea, but it simply needs some numbers improved for the most part, unlike certain others which need a full re-tooling. Unlucky Spain.

 

[Leucarum]

Thankfully, Canada is a nice case where the civilisation has an interesting and unique idea, but it simply needs some numbers improved for the most part

This 100%. The idea is all there and to be honest, Canada has really great synergy between the elements of its kit. They just need the dial turned up a bit to be competitive... Particularly when it comes to their tundra tiles.

 

[UWHabs]

This 100%. The idea is all there and to be honest, Canada has really great synergy between the elements of its kit. They just need the dial turned up a bit to be competitive... Particularly when it comes to their tundra tiles.

Crazy to think that they've already been buffed once or twice since release. Basically initially they were like a 0.5/10 for what they were given. Now, they're probably like a 2/10. But yeah, give them a little more to all their abilities they have now, maybe a little more passive gain on something else, and can easily get them to like a 5 or 6 without really changing anything drastic about them. And that's fine - not every civ should be a 10/10 for power. They've got some uniques that work for them now, just need to add a little more to round out the rest of their abilities.

The other flaw with them is they're kind of set up for both wanting Dance of the Aurora for tundra bonuses, but also Goddess of the Hunt as there's a lot of tundra camps which they can make use of. Although I guess that's not really unique to them - a lot of civs end up with contrasting top pantheon options.

 

[BD123]

Thankfully, Canada is a nice case where the civilisation has an interesting and unique idea, but it simply needs some numbers improved for the most part, unlike certain others which need a full re-tooling. Unlucky Spain.

Idk I feel the biggest eye-catchers of Canada are supposed to be farming tundra and no war , with the first being unique in terms of gameplay but like horribly useless gameplay wise so more often than not Canada just ends up being a normal civ since you're settling regular grassland and plains tiles anyways. If the devs finally drop the idea of tundra farming, which is ahistorical to begin with, and just give Canada stuff for all lumbermills and camps I think they'd be better off.

I doubt it'll happen but I kind of want Isabella's Seven Cities of Gold ability from Civ 5 to put onto Spain's (maybe) April re-balancing. Natural wonders are more interesting and plentiful in 6 than 5, and even in 5 that ability made them more-often-than-not better. It's not thematically super Spanish-y but it was fun and in 6 I can see it being very fun lol

 

[Leucarum]

Crazy to think that they've already been buffed once or twice since release. Basically initially they were like a 0.5/10 for what they were given. Now, they're probably like a 2/10. But yeah, give them a little more to all their abilities they have now, maybe a little more passive gain on something else, and can easily get them to like a 5 or 6 without really changing anything drastic about them. And that's fine - not every civ should be a 10/10 for power. They've got some uniques that work for them now, just need to add a little more to round out the rest of their abilities.

The other flaw with them is they're kind of set up for both wanting Dance of the Aurora for tundra bonuses, but also Goddess of the Hunt as there's a lot of tundra camps which they can make use of. Although I guess that's not really unique to them - a lot of civs end up with contrasting top pantheon options.

I think it's cool that they have options for their pantheon. I'd also say Earth Goddess is amazing for them given that they'll want to create high appeal tiles for national parks and have hockey rinks to help with that on top.

And yeah, their original kit was awful. I guess the developers severely overrated the no war bonus. They really need more food on tundra by default at the very least...

 

[BD123]

And yeah, their original kit was awful. I guess the developers severely overrated the no war bonus. They really need more food on tundra by default at the very least.

Maybe they could do +1 production to tundra farms on top of +1 food? Then the farms would be +2 food +1 production which is equal to plains farms I think. They need food but food isn't the only thing holding them back from making use of tundra I feel like