Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

[IvoryPavane]

Since we are all doing ideas, here are a few I’ve been mulling over for a while now

France: Chateaux are one per city, have one slot for great works of art and give 1 culture for each work of art and music in the city

Phonecia: Change capital project is initially dramatically cheaper and scales with the amount of times it’s been completed. When moving capital to a new continent, that city gets 50% production for 10 turns (once per continent)

Georgia: As in Dramatic Ages mode, plus 1 GPP per wall built (will turn to faith once religion founded)

Netherlands: Radio Oranje reworked and provides 2 culture and 3 loyalty to internal trade routes, and 2 gold and culture to external trade routes

Maya: 25% reduced costs towards builders, +1 gold for farms adjacent to two other farms, starting bias removes all non-plantation luxuries

Scotland: Golf courses provide 2 food, housing, amenities. +4 culture if next to entertainment district. One per city.

I wondered if some of these were too strong and then I saw most of the NFP Civs.....

 

[Jebio]

France: Chateaux are one per city

not going to happen because they would have to change the cheevo for it.

 

[IvoryPavane]

France: Chateaux are one per city

not going to happen because they would have to change the cheevo for it.

Oh poo. Well let’s keep it anyway. Multiple allowed and holds great works . It’s still marginally less bonkers than Gran Columbia

 

[bengalryan9]

Scotland: Golf courses provide 2 food, housing, amenities. +4 culture if next to entertainment district. One per city.

I wonder if maybe golf courses shouldn't be linked to appeal - after all, it seems like you find a lot of golf courses in very scenic areas. Make them like a one-per-city version of the chemamull with higher yields to compensate.

 

[aieeegrunt]

I think it was Civilisation Revolution where the ships you built came with a 'Ranger Militia' unit like a raiding or exploration party made from the ships crew that could jump off the ship to search ruins, explore deeper inland and clear an unguarded camp. I really liked that feature I wish it had come back to the main series so I could send my scouting galley to check out a remote village or have my caravel get a bit more information on the new continent without having to wait for a slow scout to sail over.

Both Civ Rev and Civ Rev 2 had this and it was a great mechanic

 

[konokoni]

A few changes I'd like to see based on my experience with the below:

• Arabia: Allow Mamluks to promote into Cuirassiers and / or have them unlock slightly earlier.
  
• Australia: Pick some / all of these: tone down Citadel of Civilization to a 50% bonus, and / or limit it to being declared on, rather than that and liberating a city. Reduce the potency of the Outback Station a bit (remove production bonus for 2 adjacent OS's?). Reduce the breathtaking district yield bonus to +2 (or get rid of it and just have the +1 for appealing and breathtaking). Australia gets a lot of really good bonuses that are very easy to leverage, especially when it comes to production.
  
• Dutch: Make Polders easier to place; perhaps reduce the requirement to two adjacent land tiles. Kampungs are easy enough to spam so I don't think it would be unfair to loosen the restrictions on polders a bit. It might also make their movement penalty useful if you can line your coastline with them. For Radio Oranje, either increase the loyalty bonus to a substantial number (as high as +4 seems reasonable to me) or scrap that part entirely and have a more substantial bonus to trading with friends / allies (maybe +1 to culture / science / production to mirror Grote Rivieren?).
  
• Egypt: I feel like they need a small nudge but I'm not sure what. Increase the production bonus of Iteru to 20%? Have trade routes give tourism after Flight (+4 or equal to culture value of trade route)?
  
• Japan: The Electronics Factory should give Tourism as well (maybe once Flight is researched). Japan's already a strong Civ, but the Electronics Factory is rather unimpressive for how late it becomes available.
• Nubia: Tone down Ta-Seti to a 25% production bonus or just remove it. Pitati Archers are already amazing, Nubia doesn't need even more help getting an early-game rush going. Kandake of Meroë is also terrific, but I'm not sure I'd change it if they change Ta-Seti.
  
• Russia: Tone down their faith income by removing the +1 on tundra; maybe replace it with another resource, maybe not. Improve their trade route bonus to +1 science and culture for every one or two researches / civics the trade partner is ahead. Russia runs away with the religious game too easily right now, but I wouldn't want to remove their ability to compete entirely. They also vacuum up all the GWAM's, but I'm not sure how to change that without removing everything that makes Russia unique...

 

[Pietato]

Unlocking Mysticism lets you use the Revelations policy card when you still have Chiefdom since your military policy slot is converted over to a wildcard slot, what more do they need?

Valid Point. Updated below.


Here are my thoughts (I know you have all been waiting for my singularly glorious opinion):

General
- Scout class reworked to not be bad at their job after horses are discovered, and Skirmisher and Spec. Ops. buffed to useful levels of power.
- Anti-cav line buffed and made vulnerable to Siege.
- Siege made easier to use, and Trebuchet added between Catapult and Bombard.
- Game pace slowed down so Era actually means something.
- Golden Age dedications balanced so that you do not end up spamming Monumentality.
- Specialists reworked to not suck.
- Only AI Maya can raze city-states, no other AI can.

Civs

Australia
- Too easy to get appeal bonuses, and trigger their Liberation bonus.

Arabia
- When their religion is founded, they gain a free worship belief, on top of the usual two.
- Mamluk can be upgraded into a Cuirassier.

Canada
- I would rework them, as they are a walking meme. But if not, the Tourism converted to favour needs to massively change. It should be a running total, and it should give 1 favour per 50 tourism generated EVER.
- Laurier's ability needs to buff tundra more, because it still sucks.

Cree
- Okihtcitaw given +1 sight and +5 versus barbarians, instead of a free promotion.
- Poundmaker's trade ability scales with era.

Dutch
- Polder slightly buffed to keep up with the yield creep.
- Wilhelmina's ability improved and made to scale with era.

Egypt
- Flood Plains are now treated like Forests for appeal. Some adjacency bonuses for floodplains would also be nice.
- Cleopatra's ability now scales with era.

England
- Rework or split in two like Teddy. Eleanor would lead the exploration/cultural one.
- Eleanor needs to be exempt from the -5 diplomatic favour for occupying an enemy capital, if she takes it by loyalty. This KILLED her game. An additional source of GPP or increased ranged on her ability would also help her actually use it before the mid-game.

France
- Base France either needs a rework or serious buffs. They are nothing without their leader.
- Catherine's spies can pick their promotion from the start. She needs something since spying on allies was removed.
- Eleanor needs to be exempt from the -5 diplomatic favour for occupying an enemy capital, if she takes it by loyalty. This KILLED her game. An additional source of GPP or increased ranged on her ability would also help her actually use it before the mid-game.

Georgia
- Walls can be built even after Steel is researched.
- Khevsur can be upgraded to.
- Tamar: envoys give GPP.

India
- Religious pressure is bad. If they made it better, then the trade route bonus would be passable.
- Gandhi faith bonus scales better with era.

Japan
- Change Electronics Factory to not suck.
- Samurai can be upgraded to.

Khmer
- Rework both civ and leader. They occupy their own Khmer tier, right at the bottom.

Maori
- When starting in water, have more of the map revealed (you came from somewhere, and this will also stop you from swimming off into the Pacific).

Mapuche
- Rework. They are a contrary mess.

Maya
- I would like them to scale to map size, but that might be too confusing. The other option would be to boost their amenities, increase the capital bonus radius to 7 (this means every city can have unique tiles), and not count ocean in the calculation. Starting next to the coast should not be so brutal. Also have their cities start with +1 housing.

Persia
- Trade bonus scales with era, and works with city-states as well.

Phoenicia
- I would like them to not lose population when building/buying settlers, though that would tread on Magus' ability.
- Give them some yield bonus to trade routes.
- City relocation needs to cost less and scale slower. It is basically a wonder, and impossible to transfer properly before the game is over.

Poland
- Buff forts.

Russia
- Lavra needs a nerf.
- Peter's ability needs a buff.

Spain
- A mess. I would rework.

Sweden
- Nobel Prize made baseline for the World Congress, and Sweden given something new.

 

[bengalryan9]

Poland
- Buff forts.

I agree, and it would also help Rome and the Maori too.

 

[InsidiousMage]

- Scout class reworked to not be bad at their job after horses are discovered, and Skirmisher and Spec. Ops. buffed to useful levels of power.
- Anti-cav line buffed
- Siege made easier to use, and Trebuchet added between Catapult and Bombard.
- Game pace slowed down so Era actually means something.
- Golden Age dedications balanced so that you do not end up spamming Monumentality.

Agree with all of this, especially slowing down Eras. Also, all unique districts generate +2 GPP instead of one to match the Lavra.

Some buffs I'd like to see:
Arabia - Purchase Campus buildings with faith
Brazil - Amazon apply to Industrial Zones
Cree - Nihithaw providing more trade routes as the game progresses
Dutch - Polders easier to place
Tamar - Bonus faith for being a suzerain, maybe 5% per to match Pericles and the late game policy cards. Purchase walls with faith.
Hungary - Pearl is strong but highly situational so something else is needed.
Inca - Terrace Farms counting towards Feudalism
Chandragupta - I honest want him to lead his own civ with the Varu because he does not mesh well with India at all. Also, a grievance discount similar to Cyrus's.
Khmer - Holy Sites get major adjacency bonus from rivers and aqueducts
Japan - Electronics Factory culture is applied to cities powered by the Industrial Zone
Norway - The Stave Church needs to be better integrated into Norway's play style or just replaced
Ottoman - Janissary becomes the Ottoman unique unit and the Corsair Suleiman's to allow for a good alt leaders. Also just makes more historical sense.
Dido - Move Capital project needs to be discounted because early cities don't have enough production and it's just too expensive in the late game.
Poland - Purchase Encampment buildings with faith
Trajan - Some kind of warmonger bonuses
Rome - +2 amenities for the Bath
Russia/Peter - Give Peter the Lavra and Russia a tile improvement that gets extra yields on tundra
Robert - Something since Wars of Liberation are so inconstant
Scotland - Move the golf course to Humanism

 

[Pietato]

Oops, meant the only AI who can raze city-states is the Maya. Player can still do it.

 

[Cagarustus]

I think the Netherlands should definitely have their bonuses around corporations, since the Dutch were the pioneers of corporations.

Spain could focus on extra growth and/or extra resource extraction on foreign continents. Maybe something to do with extra gold at the expense of loyalty on foreign continents. These changes reflect what happened in Spanish colonial territories.

 

[Pietato]

Agree with all of this, especially slowing down Eras. Also, all unique districts generate +2 GPP instead of one to match the Lavra.

Edit - Nevermind, I messed up.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Not sure Babylon and Korea need that buff, and England's already does.

I'm pretty sure Babylon doesn't have a Unique District.

Brew God

 

[Pietato]

I'm pretty sure Babylon doesn't have a Unique District.

Brew God

Not sure why I thought they did. Cheers bro.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Not sure why I thought they did. Cheers bro.

They're that OP, huh?

Brew God (keeping the meme alive, ladies and gentlemen.)

 

[Ticio]

I think it was Civilisation Revolution where the ships you built came with a 'Ranger Militia' unit like a raiding or exploration party made from the ships crew that could jump off the ship to search ruins, explore deeper inland and clear an unguarded camp. I really liked that feature I wish it had come back to the main series so I could send my scouting galley to check out a remote village or have my caravel get a bit more information on the new continent without having to wait for a slow scout to sail over.

It sounds like a cool idea. i think they have made something similar with the pirates mode. Maybe some aspect of it could be implemented on tha base game!

I think the Netherlands should definitely have their bonuses around corporations, since the Dutch were the pioneers of corporations.

Spain could focus on extra growth and/or extra resource extraction on foreign continents. Maybe something to do with extra gold at the expense of loyalty on foreign continents. These changes reflect what happened in Spanish colonial territories.

The extra growth can be achieve with the +1food per internal trade routes (between different continents). If you place a capital with Magnus (Surplus logistics) + Colonial Offices, your cities in foreign continents will grow super fast!


Maybe a buff to "Colonial Offices" or "Colonial taxes" could be implemented so all Civs based on intercontinental bonuses can profit. For example adding +10% faith to "Colonial Taxes" and 30% growth for Colonial Offices. This way the slot taken by the policy worth it more and cities founded after exploration era are able to produce enough to add to the civ (I personally think that the cities founded during this time in the game arrive too late).

 

[HiRezAudio]

The main thing I would like to see in a general overhaul is a rework of the stupid 'denounce, denounce, denounce' nonsense that currently stops all diplo favour after a successful war.
A good example was yesterday - I was playing as John Curtin, and Spain were on my Eastern border and friendly with them (as with all the other civs) right up to the point where on the very turn the friendship with Spain expired he declared a surprise war on me.
This went about as well as you might expect given Curtin's bonuses when declared on by surprise and I promptly eviscerated the Spanish Empire, wiped him out in the North-East by taking 4 cities including his Capital & then peaced out.
From that point onwards, I was in negative diplo favour for the rest of the damned game - nothing I could do stopped this, everyone denounced me as soon as they could & remained unfriendly for the rest of the game even though I never attacked anyone, and did all the usual stuff - I remained in permanent negative diplo favour, despite having Kilwa wonder and suzerainty of 7 city states (the others having been killed in the main by the AI apart from a couple over on the second continent that had survived).
All my cities were ecstatic or happy (I know how to do this) yet diplo favour remained absolutely negative for the rest of the game because 'I had caused grievances against them' when the only civ I hurt was Spain, who were PITA to everyone & I really should have just wiped the buggers right out and saved the world a lot of trouble, myself included.

The point is that right now, unless you go on a domination roll, then once you take one capital, then it seems you end up in negative diplo favour for the rest of the game.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

The problem here is not to buff and make all Civs OP, because none of them will be OP then. Just general power creep will increase and the difficulty of the game will decrease. Is it what we want?
The problem is:
a) to make them more fun and unique to play. (Some Civs should stay simple and pretty boring for beginners. Perhaps less than we have now)
b) to make their abilities more interdependent the way Byzantium does it. Their military power depends on religion, so you get a bonus to get one. Some Civs are just jack-of-all-trades and in a bad manner. The bonus here, bonus there, but neither supports particular gameplay. India for example. They receive a fun religious game twist, which is a little bit conflicting with Religious victory, but you don't have any other victory type tool to utilize this bonus. Dharma is fun as a supporting ability. But it supports nothing particular imo.
EDIT. Second Example Poland. You have two paths here Military/religion with UU in culture tree (really?) and UB as a support for a military game. Culture game based on relics with disputable support of UB and UU. Can we make it more synergized? If I play a culture game I must build commercial districts and Encampments to utilize my buff, and if I play a military game I have to invest culture in civics tree to get my UU. No matter what path to win I choose half of my Civ bonuses are dead...

 

[Ticio]

The problem here is not to buff and make all Civs OP, because none of them will be OP then. Just general power creep will increase and the difficulty of the game will decrease. Is it what we want?
The problem is:
a) to make them more fun and unique to play. (Some Civs should stay simple and pretty boring for beginners. Perhaps less than we have now)
b) to make their abilities more interdependent the way Byzantium does it. Their military power depends on religion, so you get a bonus to get one. Some Civs are just jack-of-all-trades and in a bad manner. The bonus here, bonus there, but neither supports particular gameplay. India for example. They receive a fun religious game twist, which is a little bit conflicting with Religious victory, but you don't have any other victory type tool to utilize this bonus. Dharma is fun as a supporting ability. But it supports nothing particular imo.
EDIT. Second Example Poland. You have two paths here Military/religion with UU in culture tree (really?) and UB as a support for a military game. Culture game based on relics with disputable support of UB and UU. Can we make it more synergized? If I play a culture game I must build commercial districts and Encampments to utilize my buff, and if I play a military game I have to invest culture in civics tree to get my UU. No matter what path to win I choose half of my Civ bonuses are dead...

I agree, changes should focus on making civs more intuitive and reaching a synergy between theirs bonuses. That said, some bonus could be tweaked when they go against themselves. The most obvious and outrageous one (for me) is the penalty per capital capture for Eleonore. It just make no sense! Her bonus ends up going against herself and her playstyle, so they should buff it a little.

The same for Cleopatra economic bonuses, the main point of Egypt (at least a big one) is trade. So improve it so they can keep up with the +4 bonus (make the +4 gold be subject to trade routes improvements), if not the bonus will eventually become almost unnoticeable as the prices rises.

 

[UWHabs]

The problem here is not to buff and make all Civs OP, because none of them will be OP then. Just general power creep will increase and the difficulty of the game will decrease. Is it what we want?
The problem is:
a) to make them more fun and unique to play. (Some Civs should stay simple and pretty boring for beginners. Perhaps less than we have now)
b) to make their abilities more interdependent the way Byzantium does it. Their military power depends on religion, so you get a bonus to get one. Some Civs are just jack-of-all-trades and in a bad manner. The bonus here, bonus there, but neither supports particular gameplay. India for example. They receive a fun religious game twist, which is a little bit conflicting with Religious victory, but you don't have any other victory type tool to utilize this bonus. Dharma is fun as a supporting ability. But it supports nothing particular imo.
EDIT. Second Example Poland. You have two paths here Military/religion with UU in culture tree (really?) and UB as a support for a military game. Culture game based on relics with disputable support of UB and UU. Can we make it more synergized? If I play a culture game I must build commercial districts and Encampments to utilize my buff, and if I play a military game I have to invest culture in civics tree to get my UU. No matter what path to win I choose half of my Civ bonuses are dead...

I don't think that necessarily every civ needs to have all their pieces work together 100%, but I would agree that when civs try to go down "too many" paths, they struggle.

Like a good civ with different paths to me is Rome. They're a little basic, granted, but they basically have some builder bonuses (free monuments, free roads, baths), and a strong UU. They don't 100% fit together, since sometimes Rome is played best as an pure expansionist builder, and sometimes they're a good early invader, but there's only a few pieces that really conflict there, and they're still fairly general. As I said, perhaps a little boring overall in their bonuses, but not the end of the world.

A "bad" civ I would say is England-Eleanor. Her problem is that her leader ability means you need to be going down the faith/culture path in order to get great works from either relics or art. But the UB and UU are both naval, so she also needs to be a coastal empire. But coastal empires are also usually more spaced out, which contradicts her leader bonus. But then on top of that, the civ ability is now all about industrialization, which means you need an encampment for engineer spam, and need to be building out your industrial zones. But then none of that are science bonuses, so when exactly can she build campuses?
Norway would be another example. Sure, they have war and pillaging which all work together, but then you add in the Stave Church which means that suddenly you have to go build a bunch of holy sites. They're not bad since they can pretty much survive on pillaging, but I find when I play them, I just have to ignore the church. If that church was a tile improvement instead, that would be a huge buff to them, since now you don't need to go down the religion line and can focus more on war.

Poland as mentioned could be helped if the Sukiennice gave, say, culture on trade routes, rather than gold/production. Even a simple +2 culture per trade route would help them, and then perhaps related to the leader ability, maybe giving +1 culture per city of your founded religion would just give a few more little nods to help tie their items together just a tad more. Otherwise, they're not too bad, since I do like how you basically always get both production and gold on every trade route of theirs, which means you have less choices to worry about, and extra wildcard slots are always good for molding your strategy. But yeah, they're a civ which goes down a few too many paths to focus too much on.