I agree that there should be public mechanisms of appeal. I also think that the mods ought not to do things that irritate such a substantial proportion of the community that public mechanisms of appeal are necessary. They should be studiously even-handed; should leave matters to the NES mods (who should ideally be NESers); and shouldn't do things that sabotage NESes or anything that might cause the entire community to hate them - because what's the point in that?
Reform of 'PDMA' Guidelines and Establishment of Public Appeal Thread/Forum
- Thread starter Thlayli
- Start date
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awesome
Meme Lord
i haven't read the entire thread, but i have to say that i'm for a change in this policy. however, this shouldn't be changed for a single forum, but for the entire site. i can understand why the rule is in place, but it seems like it's one of the rules that is sometimes enforced without regard to context.
Ailedhoo
wonderer
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2012
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- 7,811
True; if it is done for one sub-forum then it should be open to all sub-forums.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
As the moderators have learned from these threads, we can engage in this sort of discussion without egregiously breaking forum rules.
The real question here, is what sort of attitude do the moderators have toward the community? If it is an optimistic attitude, then moderators will consider CFCers sufficiently mature to handle a public discussion that may involve criticizing moderators without flaming them.
If the attitude is primarily pessimistic, the current private system, which prioritizes the enforcement of superficial order at the expense of forum member feelings, is what they will keep in place.
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It is important to understand that this desire is not going away. The drive for inclusiveness and reform of moderator-member relations will and must continue until we see concessions that allow the concerns of moderator distance, opacity, and mismanagement to be satisfied in a way that pleases the community.
The real question here, is what sort of attitude do the moderators have toward the community? If it is an optimistic attitude, then moderators will consider CFCers sufficiently mature to handle a public discussion that may involve criticizing moderators without flaming them.
If the attitude is primarily pessimistic, the current private system, which prioritizes the enforcement of superficial order at the expense of forum member feelings, is what they will keep in place.
---
It is important to understand that this desire is not going away. The drive for inclusiveness and reform of moderator-member relations will and must continue until we see concessions that allow the concerns of moderator distance, opacity, and mismanagement to be satisfied in a way that pleases the community.
Zack
99% hot gas
I have a specific incident in mind, but I'm not sure I can discuss it given the PDMA rules.This simply isn't true. I've been told to correct actions in the past because I got it wrong. The people involved all knew that I corrected my mistake(s) and generally were very polite and forgiving.
That isn't the case. See this thread for statistics on our appeals process.
Interesting, thanks. I checked it out, and our process is very similar.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
I've appealed most infractions I've ever had, but I rarely get a reply. How do I know what constitutes an appeal under this system? No one ever told me, "I'm considering it." Not once.
Isn't it ironic?
They key difference is more transparency, though I will freely admit any appeals system is preferable to none. I think I've successfully appealed one of my two or three infractions on here.
I see only one appeal you made to the supermoderators under the system, it was in 2011, with a result of "reversed".
Hace you followed the procedure in the rules to start a review withe supermoderators after first discussing the matter with issuing moderator?
APPEALING MODERATOR ACTIONS
The Process
If a poster feels that they have been wrongly infracted or banned, they may ask for a review of the infraction or the ban by the SUPERMODS. This new process replaces the previous process of appealing to the ADMINS. All reviews follow the same steps.
1. Member PMs a designated supermod
2. The supermod acknowledges the PM and posts the request in the infraction review subforum (a non public forum)
3. Clearly frivolous requests will be dismissed and the poster notified that their request has been denied
4. Non frivolous requests will be reviewed by at least three supermods, one of whom will be from the area of the forums where the infraction took place.
5. The mod who gave the infraction will be asked to clarify their reasoning on the infraction.
6. Poster is notified of the outcome
7. The decision of this panel is final and no further appeals will be considered by the Supermods or Admins.
The Details
Send a PM to one of the Super Moderators. You can find a list of all supermoderators at the bottom of This Page. They have the responsibility to start the process. If you have not received an acknowledgement within 24 hours, you may resend your request to a different supermod on this list. Warnings are not reviewable; don’t waste our time.
Requests for review are required to be presented in a polite manner. Posters should include the following with a request for review. Failure to include all of this information may result in your request being denied out of hand. This initial PM is your opportunity to tell your side of the story. Once the process starts, you may not be contacted until it is over. Incivility or abusive language will not help your cause.
--Reference to infraction in question.
--All previous PMs with the mod issuing the infraction.
--Why you think that the infraction is wrong.
--What outcome you are seeking.
IMPORTANT! - Please note that the requests of posters who persistently ask for a review for all, almost all, or most of their infractions (you know who you are) will not be granted, and those posters will generally be dealt with in the same manner as those who abuse the report posts function. The drive behind this change is to provide an opportunity for people who genuinely feel they have been wrongly infracted to have that infraction re-examined by a panel of the more experienced supermods; we will not allow frivolous requests to clog up the infraction system with even more unnecessary paperwork.
Not sure what you are talking about there, infractions and bans through the infractions system are automatically logged by the forum. Appeals first to the moderator and then to the supermoderators are made by the poster. If a supermoderator does not respond with 24 hours (usually because that supermod has not logged in that period) the members PMs another one
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
So you're saying appeals I've made to mods and supermods and admins are all fictional? I've made far more than one. Maybe your system missed it, or your staffmates ignored it? Seems likely, considering how cliquish you guys are about keeping the members down.
Your bias is showing.
Your bias is showing.
brennan
Argumentative Brit
Interesting. Pretty much all of mine have been fair enough, in fact I usually know when i've been a bit too lairy and may possibly get an infraction. Is it your belief that you are being picked on?
I would GUESS that you often mistook the step of reviewing the infraction with the issuing moderator, as taking care of the later separate step of contacting an supermod after you had tried working it out with the issuing moderator.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
The real issue here is that if the appeal function is being underused, or very rarely used, perhaps it's not the best method in every case to foster a discussion between moderators and forum goers.
After all, the PM format doesn't really lend itself to communal discussion, resolution, or understanding, and the rest of the forum operates user those principles.
After all, the PM format doesn't really lend itself to communal discussion, resolution, or understanding, and the rest of the forum operates user those principles.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Perhaps the moderators should automatically shoot the thing up to appeal if any questions over the legitimacy of it come up? Just a thought.
Perhaps if the moderator and the infractee can resolve the issue to their mutual satisfaction, there is no need for others' involvement? Immediately escalating every "hey, why did you infract me" PM to a SuperMod review panel is unlikely to be a good use of everyone's limited time and attention.
The standard infraction notice makes no mention of an appeals process, so an infractee must either ask the moderator how to appeal (assuming they know such a right exists) or rummage through the site rules themselves to find the process. Revising the standard infraction notice to include a link to the portion of the site rules describing the appeal process might help folks understand the current process and make utilizing that process a bit easier/less obscure.
The standard infraction notice makes no mention of an appeals process, so an infractee must either ask the moderator how to appeal (assuming they know such a right exists) or rummage through the site rules themselves to find the process. Revising the standard infraction notice to include a link to the portion of the site rules describing the appeal process might help folks understand the current process and make utilizing that process a bit easier/less obscure.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Or mods who are infraction happy should be removed from their positions and new mods raised to fill them? In combination with the rules, overzealous moderation is one of the main issues this forum faces. They know who they are, too, and certain promotions have greatly insulted large sections of the forum, not just NES or IOT, but OT and others, too.
So the way I see it, reform appeals and PDMA, while also fixing the staff issues you currently have should do it.
ywhtptgtfo
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2010
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- 1,746
Reminds me of dictators in reducing the freedom of civilians. Let's just get rid of this pesky freedom because some people did bad things with that freedom.
You almost make it sound like you have done a comprehensive study on this.
I don't see what's wrong in my quote. It was some bad moderating decisions and your very own attitude in the quote already outlines there is a problem with the way staff members think. And ainwood, there is objectivity in my comment but since you and your buddies want to forbid criticisms on specific incidents, I am just going to leave this subject at that tsk tsk.
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