Religion, Rome and The Reich

ComradeDavo

Formerly God
Joined
Jul 1, 2001
Messages
12,243
Location
Europa
With all this Da Vinci code talk of late, i'd thought i'd post this to remind everyone of the real scandal for the catholic Church - a Pope who many (including me) believe was a Nazi sympathiser....

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article549446.ece

Religion, Rome and The Reich: The Vatican's other dirty secret
Forget 'The Da Vinci Code', 'God's HQ on earth' has a real ghost in the cupboard - collusion with the Nazis. No wonder then, says Peter Stanford, that the church is hiding papers on the dealings of 'Hitler's Pope', Pius XII
Published: 21 May 2006


As The Da Vinci Code arrives in our cinemas with its lurid accusations of a church cover-up of Jesus's life as a family man, Roman Catholic leaders have been vocal in dismissing the film of Dan Brown's bestseller as unsuitable viewing for believers. Cardinal amongst its sins according to them is its suggestion that a church organisation, Opus Dei, would attempt to manipulate history to fit its beliefs. But that, it was charged last week, is precisely what the Vatican is doing in regard of a much more recent event, the Holocaust.

An unflattering spotlight fell on God's business address on Earth when the German Justice Minister, Brigitte Zypries, announced on Tuesday that her country is finally to open its huge archive of Nazi records on 17 million concentration camp inmates and slave labourers. Germany's belated move to answer the pleas for access to its archives by Holocaust survivors and their families now leaves only the Vatican standing all alone in denying them the chance to read what is in its wartime documents.

You might expect an organisation that - as the bishops have been busy pointing out last week to counter the picture of their church presented in The Da Vinci Code - is dedicated to truth, justice, forgiveness and reconciliation to have been among the first to offer access to its files. And its refusal to open its secret files has only increased suspicion that it has something it wants to cover up - principally evidence of the alleged pro-Nazi sympathies of wartime pope, Pius XII.

In the church's official annals, Pius, who died in 1958, is painted as a saintly shepherd who led his flock with great moral courage in difficult times. For many scholars, though, he is at worst the Devil incarnate, "Hitler's Pope", and at best a coward who refused to speak out against the extermination of Jews, gypsies and homosexuals in gas chambers, even when he had compelling evidence that it was happening, lest his words attract Nazi aggression.

Month by month, year by year, more evidence emerges from other sources about where the Vatican's sympathies lay in the Second World War. Earlier this year, for example, a 1946 instruction from Pope Pius to the French bishops was unearthed that ordered them not to hand over Jewish children they had been sheltering to Jewish charities now the conflict was over. According to the outspoken Harvard historian Professor Daniel Goldhagen, Pius was guilty in this instance of "having given the order to take [Jewish] children away from their parents and should be regarded as little better than a war criminal."

The Vatican's response to all such accusations is to issue a blanket denial, insisting that it was neutral throughout the conflict. Yet in the absence of any compelling documentary evidence to buttress its position, few are now willing to take its word as gospel on its war record.

And the pressure has only built since the election 13 months ago of Pope Benedict XVI. Where his predecessor John Paul II had worked during the Second World War with the Polish underground to defeat the Nazis and save Jews, the former Cardinal Ratzinger had been a member of the Hitler Youth, albeit a reluctant one. The Vatican's archives - known curiously as the Secret Archives, though their existence has been well known since 1610 - is under the personal control of the Pope. One word from Benedict and the doors could be thrown open.

While we wait for the church to catch up with the rest of the world, what is known for certain from other sources is that in 1933 as Vatican representative in Germany, the future Pius XII had agreed a treaty with Hitler, whose authoritarian tendencies he admired, to close down the Catholic -dominated Centre Party, one of National Socialism's staunchest opponents. This treaty was based on the Vatican's 1929 agreement with Mussolini, the Italian fascist leader. On being elected Pope in 1939, Pius's first act was to suppress a document denouncing Hitler, entitled Mit Brennender Sorge ("With deep anxiety ...") that his predecessor had been writing on his deathbed. And throughout the war, Pius XII made no public condemnation of the Holocaust, save for a single ambiguous sentence in a 26-page Christmas message of 1942.

Among the various disputed accusations made against him are that he did nothing to protect the Jews of Rome as the Nazis and Italian fascists carted them away to gas chambers from their ghetto in Trastevere under the very windows of the Vatican; that he forbade monasteries and convents to shelter Jews trying to escape the Nazis; that he allowed the church to profit from looted goods taken from the Nazis' victims; and that he turned a blind eye to assistance given by Catholic religious orders, notably in Croatia, to help Nazi war criminals escape to start new lives in Latin America.

The church vigorously denies all these charges, but without access to the Vatican's wartime archive, there can be no independent verification of their unblinking faith that Pius XII was free from the stain of sin. In 1964, the then Pope, Paul VI, did order that a selection of relevant documents be released. These were, however, to be chosen by Vatican historians and, unsurprisingly, tell a resoundingly positive tale of informal initiatives and deep concern about the Holocaust. As Lord Janner, formerly Greville Janner MP, and chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust, has remarked, the Vatican's edited highlights have been "carefully selected to stress only positive efforts by the Vatican to resist Nazism or to save victims".

In the late 1990s, searching for a way to disarm the ever greater numbers of historians who suspected it of a cover-up, the Vatican allowed the British writer, John Cornwell, limited access to its papers about Pius XII. A cradle Catholic, ex-seminarian and the author of a book which conclusively refuted allegations that Pope John Paul I had been murdered, Cornwell, the monsignori decided, could be trusted.

However, he describes how, having read only a part of the archive about Pius, he found himself "in a state I can only describe as moral shock. The material I had gathered, taking the more extensive view of [Pius XII's] life, amounted not to an exoneration but to a wider indictment."

When Cornwell's book, Hitler's Pope, was published in 1999, it alleged that Pius was seemingly prepared to put up with any Nazi atrocity because he saw Hitler as a good bulwark against the advance across Europe of godless communism from Russia. To paraphrase more recent politicians, the deaths of 6 million Jews was a price worth paying to protect the Catholic church.

The Vatican reacted with a front-page editorial in its official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, attacking Cornwell as "unqualified" to make such judgements. The controversy wouldn't go away, however. Finally, in October 1999, the church agreed to allow access to a joint panel of six Jewish and Catholic experts, appointed by the Vatican and the International Jewish Committee for Inter-religious Consultation. By July 2001 the Jewish members of the group resigned, quoting the "lack of a positive response" from the Vatican. In short, they had refused to let them see anything new.

Despite repeated efforts since, the records remain locked away in the Secret Archive to this day. The Vatican has offered a variety of justifications. A favourite has been to use the same line as the German authorities in defending, until Brigitte Zypries's change of heart, keeping archives closed, namely privacy considerations. Now that Germany has capitulated, however, that excuse has gone out of the window.

At other times "technical reasons" have been quoted, or lack of manpower to do the cataloguing. It has also been suggested darkly that allowing free access would break the seal of the confessional. Matters were not helped in January of this year when Archbishop Sergio Pagano, Prefect of the Secret Archives, gave an interview with the Italian church magazine, Avvenire, where he bemoaned the "strange phenomenon" of all these experts wanting to poke around in the Pope's private papers.

So the archives on this much disputed period remain firmly closed. Such an unflinching commitment to secrecy has soured Catholic-Jewish relationships - overshadowing, for instance, John Paul II's historic March 2000 apology to the Jews for centuries of Christian anti-Semitism.

And many Catholics in the pews are puzzled as to why, when to say the least the jury is out on Pius XII, the Vatican is apparently proceeding with all speed to canonise him. It gives the impression that their church leaders are responding to the outside world's legitimate concern to know the truth about this man with a gesture of defiance that brings the whole canon of saints into disrepute. It is precisely the sort of behaviour that leaves readers and cinemagoers prepared to give credence to Dan Brown's conspiracy theories.

Peter Stanford's book of essays, "Why I Am Still A Catholic", is published this week in paperback by Continuum

Confession time: Low moments in the life of the Catholic church

The Vatican Secret Archives contain an estimated 2 million items, including 40,000 parchments, and take up 80 kilometres (50 miles) of shelving. They date back over 1,000 years. Some 40 scholars a day consult the archives, but no material after 1939 is available. If the archives were thrown open they could cast light on these mysteries:

Pope Joan

Did a German woman of English descent cross-dress to claim the papacy in 854, as described in many medieval church chronicles? The original source of these accounts has never been found and the church is anxious to play down the story.

The Knights Templar

Featuring in every conspiracy theory about religious history, these crusaders were banned by Pope Clement V in 1312, but his reasons remain obscure and much debated.

The Pill

In the mid-1960s Pope Paul VI sought advice from leading Catholics on whether to allow Catholics to use the Pill. Most recommended he say yes, but in 1968 he came back with a definitive no that led to an exodus from the pews. What made him take this landmark decision?

Papal Assassination Attempt

On 13 May, 1981, John Paul II was gunned down by Mehmet Ali Agca. He survived and visited Agca in prison. Official enquiries never established a definite connection to the KGB as alleged, but what did Agca tell the Pope at their meetings?

Paedophile Priests

When details of the church's cover-up of the activities of paedophile priests emerged in the 1990s, the Vatican remained tight-lipped about how much it had known and for how long.
 
More controversies that are proven false :rolleyes:. The Vatican never had connections with Nazi Germany. Nor did the Spanish Catholic Church had any connections with Fascist Spain (Though they only sided with them due because of survival instincts to avoid being persecuted). Pope Pius XII himself sent sympathies to the leaders who were conqured by the Germans during the Blitz.
 
Not speaking loud against the holocaust was certainly very weak and irresponsible at best.
 
tossi said:
Not speaking loud against the holocaust was certainly very weak and irresponsible at best.
Well, what else are they suppost to do when the Vatican is surounded by Nazis out side the walls of the Vatican City? Most certanly Nazi Germany would pounce on the Vatican if they spoke against the Nazis.
 
CivGeneral said:
Well, what else are they suppost to do when the Vatican is surounded by Nazis out side the walls of the Vatican City? Most certanly Nazi Germany would pounce on the Vatican if they spoke against the Nazis.
The Vatican not only made a deal with Nazi Germany, but the Pope was pretty anti-semitic, and, in a number of people's minds, is reponsible for not speaking out.

In any case, half of the Wehrmacht and SS were Catholics.....
 
nonconformist said:
The Vatican not only made a deal with Nazi Germany, but the Pope was pretty anti-semitic, and, in a number of people's minds, is reponsible for not speaking out.

In any case, half of the Wehrmacht and SS were Catholics.....
More anti-Catholic statements I should say :coffee:. Pope Pius XII was most certanly Not an anti-semetic. In 1941, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer informed Pope Pius XII of the Jewish deportations in Vienna. Later in that same year, French Marshal Henri Philippe Petain asked the Vatican if they objected to anti-Jewish laws, Pope Pius XII responded that the church dondemned racism. In October 1941 Harold Tittman, a U.S. delegate to the Vatican, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities against Jews; Pius replied that the Vatican wished to remain "neutral," reiterating the neutrality policy which Pius invoked as early as September 1940. In late 1942, when it became clear that an allied victory over the Nazis was inevitable, Pius XII advised German and Hungarian bishops to speak out against the massacre of the Jews.

During the war, the Pope was widely praised for making a principled stand. For example, Time Magazine credited Pius XII and the Catholic Church for "fighting totalitarianism more knowingly, devoutly, and authoritatively, and for a longer time, than any other organized power" During and after the war, many Jews publicly thanked the Pope for his help. Pinchas Lapide, the Israeli counsel in Milan in the 1960s, estimated that Pius "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000 but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
 
I guess ther were supporters of Fascism and opponents in the rank of the church. In Austria in the 30s a praelat the catholic church supported all forces that were against communism, including our national branch of fascists, one praelat held a high position in the christian-social government which turned to a fascistic dictatorship after a short civil war.

I guess the relationship to nazism was ambivalent as on one side the church had to side with them against communism, otoh there was an ideological conflict with the atrocities the nazis committed. Officials a kind of looked away when non-catholic minorities and homosexuals were deported to camps.

There were also brave priests with courage that helped to save people.
 
NaziPriestsSaluteHitler.jpg

hitler%26bishop.gif
Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935
On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."

(Source: Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

More wonderful pics of the nazi's and religion...
 
CivGeneral said:
More controversies that are proven false :rolleyes:. The Vatican never had connections with Nazi Germany. Nor did the Spanish Catholic Church had any connections with Fascist Spain (Though they only sided with them due because of survival instincts to avoid being persecuted). Pope Pius XII himself sent sympathies to the leaders who were conqured by the Germans during the Blitz.
Ok, to pick one of the important point sin the article, how to your respond to this? -

''While we wait for the church to catch up with the rest of the world, what is known for certain from other sources is that in 1933 as Vatican representative in Germany, the future Pius XII had agreed a treaty with Hitler, whose authoritarian tendencies he admired, to close down the Catholic -dominated Centre Party, one of National Socialism's staunchest opponents. This treaty was based on the Vatican's 1929 agreement with Mussolini, the Italian fascist leader''
 
CivGeneral said:
In October 1941 Harold Tittman, a U.S. delegate to the Vatican, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities against Jews; Pius replied that the Vatican wished to remain "neutral," reiterating the neutrality policy which Pius invoked as early as September 1940. In late 1942, when it became clear that an allied victory over the Nazis was inevitable, Pius XII advised German and Hungarian bishops to speak out against the massacre of the Jews.

I'm not sure how that helps his case: basically he wasn't ready to take a stand until the outcome was clear. I also don't see how Nazi occupation of Rome is a reason to hold one's tongue especially if you are the Pope. I would assume if there is anyone willing to die for his moral and religious beliefs it would be the Holy Father. It just seems more like a politician's answer to me.

That said, I'm sure he was a mixed bag. There have been recent revelations that Franco allowed several jews to flee the Nazis through Spain declaring them sephardim even when they weren't.
 
Snore. Even if true, it only shows that catholics are actually human beings also and can do dumb and stupid things! Imagine that.

Total non-issue and only brought up by folks that are usually anti-religious and seem to think being a christian means you are never wrong, ever.
 
Why wouldn't hitler want to exploit the church? It holds power over people, it makes sense that a megalomaniac like him would want to hold leverage over it.
 
MobBoss said:
Snore. Even if true, it only shows that catholics are actually human beings also and can do dumb and stupid things! Imagine that.

Total non-issue and only brought up by folks that are usually anti-religious and seem to think being a christian means you are never wrong, ever.
Well, in my expierence, the Christians I know in RL like to think that they are never wrong, ever.
 
Bluemofia said:
Well, in my expierence, the Christians I know in RL like to think that they are never wrong, ever.

Ditto.

ten craps
 
Nor did the Spanish Catholic Church had any connections with Fascist Spain (Though they only sided with them due because of survival instincts to avoid being persecuted).
:eek: :eek: :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .......

Now seriously, you dont have a clue, mate. To say it in few words: Franco and the Catholic Church were ONE.
 
Brian_B said:
I'm not sure how that helps his case: basically he wasn't ready to take a stand until the outcome was clear. I also don't see how Nazi occupation of Rome is a reason to hold one's tongue especially if you are the Pope. I would assume if there is anyone willing to die for his moral and religious beliefs it would be the Holy Father. It just seems more like a politician's answer to me.
What would you do if you were the Pope during that time and the Nazis held a gun to your head? Thats basicly what was going on since the Nazis had the Pope in their crosshairs and willing to take a shot the moment the Pope goes against the Nazis. Pope Pius XII has always been against the Nazis but was to afraid to go against them for fear of Nazi persecution.

Thorgalaeg said:
Now seriously, you dont have a clue, mate. To say it in few words: Franco and the Catholic Church were ONE.
No, Franco and the Catholic Church are two separate things. I suggest that you get your mind out of the anti-Catholic propaganda.
 
CivGeneral said:
No, Franco and the Catholic Church are two separate things. I suggest that you get your mind out of the anti-Catholic propaganda.

Actually, the Church and Franco did often work together, as Spain was seen a a good, devoutly Catholic, anti-Communist nation, and Franco's vision had a large role for the Catholic Church.

One of the many skeletons in the closet of a prestigious 2000-year old institution.:(
 
MobBoss said:
Snore. Even if true, it only shows that catholics are actually human beings also and can do dumb and stupid things! Imagine that.

Total non-issue and only brought up by folks that are usually anti-religious and seem to think being a christian means you are never wrong, ever.

Well would you believe it, the Catholic Church's mistakes are being downplayed as simple human error and not being examined and analyzed so such things won't happen again.
 
It was well known that the Catholic Church wasn't really opposed at Hitler's machinations against the jews and the antireligious commies. In fact, they had a hand with Mussolini too.
The Fascist state claims its ethical character: it is Catholic but above all it is Fascist, in fact it is exclusively and essentially Fascist. Catholicism completes Fascism, and this we openly declare, but let no one think they can turn the tables on us, under cover of metaphysics or philosophy.
 
CivGeneral said:
What would you do if you were the Pope during that time and the Nazis held a gun to your head? Thats basicly what was going on since the Nazis had the Pope in their crosshairs and willing to take a shot the moment the Pope goes against the Nazis. Pope Pius XII has always been against the Nazis but was to afraid to go against them for fear of Nazi persecution.

Well, this example isn't wholly analogous but consider someone like John McCain who served nearly six years in a prisoner of war camp getting his brains beaten in on probably a daily basis because he wouldn't comply with the enemy. He was also actually given a chance to leave based on some connections but he refused and stayed and faced the beatings.

What would I do if I were the Pope and the Nazis were holding a gun to my head? I would say: "F' you Nazi scum and spit on them." Granted if I were the Pope I'd probably say it in a more dignified manner, but you get the general idea. History is full of examples of people -- with stations much lower and of less significance than the Pope -- who faced death over matters of principle.

It's also uncertain whether or not he could have been off'ed if he did stand up to Hitler. Granted I wouldn't put anything past Hitler in terms of setting new lows in societal manners; however, ever since Constantine gave the thumbs up to the Catholic Church, rulers of Europe (including the various barbarian tribes that ruled Italy after the fall of the Western Roman Empire) always give the Pope a nod of respect. He's the Pope. No matter how power mad and messed up the various kings and despots have been they all appreciate the fact that all the cool kids give props to the Holy See. Hitler, although a few donuts short of a dozen, was steeped in the concepts of imperial tradition. I'm not so sure he would have ever opted to gun down everyone in the Vatican. He probably would have just locked them up at worse.

Oh, and just a general comment -- not directed at you -- I just want to note I'm not anti-religious in the slightest. I'm not a very religious person myself but I think it's an extremely important part of culture and society. I just take issue with some of the more poltical aspects of organized religion. That's not to say the Catholic Church isn't entitled to opinions on current issues in society, just a note that in the past (ending only within the last 50 or so years) it had been an extremely political entity that would swing bargains with nations mostly out of expediency.
 
Back
Top Bottom