Religion, Rome and The Reich

Still waiting for you to refute that point CivGeneral!!!

MobBoss said:
Snore. Even if true, it only shows that catholics are actually human beings also and can do dumb and stupid things! Imagine that.

Total non-issue and only brought up by folks that are usually anti-religious and seem to think being a christian means you are never wrong, ever.
Personally I take the Nazi's as quite a serious 'issue'.

And are you trying to say that anti-religious people don't deserve a say?
 
Bluemofia said:
Well, in my expierence, the Christians I know in RL like to think that they are never wrong, ever.

Then you dont know real christians. Only one was never wrong: Jesus. All the rest of us sin on a daily basis. To try and deny it is just plain stupid.

blackheart said:
Well would you believe it, the Catholic Church's mistakes are being downplayed as simple human error and not being examined and analyzed so such things won't happen again.

My point is that the pope is a single man. Men sin. To blame the WHOLE Catholic Church for one guys (or even a handfull) error/mistake/misconduct/whatever is just stupid. Those involved are dead and gone in any event. Once more, a total non-issue brought up to merely give the Catholic Church a black eye.
 
MobBoss said:
Then you dont know real christians. Only one was never wrong: Jesus. All the rest of us sin on a daily basis. To try and deny it is just plain stupid.
Jesus was Jewish:mischief:

So rumour has it.
 
ComradeDavo said:
Personally I take the Nazi's as quite a serious 'issue'.

The Nazi's havent been a serious issue since the late '40s. Why on earth would you take them as a serious issue here almost 70 years after they lost power?

And are you trying to say that anti-religious people don't deserve a say?

I am saying the only real issues that anti-religious bring up is to discredit religion, period. You folks need a new hobby.:rolleyes:

ComradeDavo said:
Jesus was Jewish:mischief:

So rumour has it.

Yes, he was. But "Christ" = "Christians" correct? While he was Jewish, he was also the original christian. So rumor has it. And his is the ideal that all christians shoot for. To live a christ-like life is what a christian should be trying to do on a daily basis.
 
MobBoss said:
The Nazi's havent been a serious issue since the late '40s. Why on earth would you take them as a serious issue here almost 70 years after they lost power?
Because history is important and many peopel from that era are still alive. I want to see justice done, and if the vatican co-opertaed or sympathised with the Nazi's then they should not be allowed to get away with it.

MobBoss said:
I am saying the only real issues that anti-religious bring up is to discredit religion, period. You folks need a new hobby.:rolleyes:
I have made many threads in CFC OT about a wide range of subjects. In regards to the religious thread I make - well it wouldn't make sense for me as an athiest to make pro-religion threads would it now.


MobBoss said:
Yes, he was. But "Christ" = "Christians" correct? While he was Jewish, he was also the original christian. So rumor has it. And his is the ideal that all christians shoot for. To live a christ-like life is what a christian should be trying to do on a daily basis.
So says you.
 
First of all, the Pope would be practically immune from the Nazis.
Maybe Stalin, who had completely purged religion from daily life would and could have invaded the Vatican, and killed the Pope, but Hitler?
No chance.
There's a reason that he made a Concordat with the Vatican.
Germany was pretty religious, with a neat 50-50 split between Southern Catholics and northern Lutherians.
They considered themselves Chrsitians first, Germans second, even in the hyper-nationalist Third Reich. Hitler never managed to destroy, or even dent the church.
Had the Pope wished to speak out, he would have had the power and credibility to do so, and even if he were killed, it would be for a very Christian cause.

As for Franco, Nationalist Spain was the very embodiment of a Catrholic Theocracy.
 
ComradeDavo said:
Because history is important and many peopel from that era are still alive. I want to see justice done, and if the vatican co-opertaed or sympathised with the Nazi's then they should not be allowed to get away with it.

Please name any particular people involved in this allegation that are still alive today. You dont want to see justice done......you want to see the catholic church vilified.

I have made many threads in CFC OT about a wide range of subjects. In regards to the religious thread I make - well it wouldn't make sense for me as an athiest to make pro-religion threads would it now.

Why not? Athiests, while not believing in the existance of god(s), shouldnt turn a blind eye to facts surrounding religion, both GOOD and BAD. However, the large majority of athiests, LIKE YOU, choose only to focus on the bad, in some crazy effort to promote their own brand of religion: Athiesm.

So says you.

Just so happens I am also correct in what I say.
 
tossi said:
Not speaking loud against the holocaust was certainly very weak and irresponsible at best.

Speaking against holocaust and making nazi forces enter churches and monasteries and uncover Jews and others hiding there, that'd be irresponsible.

nonconformist said:
The Vatican not only made a deal with Nazi Germany, but the Pope was pretty anti-semitic, and, in a number of people's minds, is reponsible for not speaking out.

In any case, half of the Wehrmacht and SS were Catholics.....

Germany's mostly protestant. Back your words about the pope being antisemitic.

shadow2k said:

1935? Did anyone hear about concentration camps back then?

Thorgalaeg said:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .......

Now seriously, you dont have a clue, mate. To say it in few words: Franco and the Catholic Church were ONE.

I don't blaim the church for defending itself against a force willing to destroy it.

What would I do if I were the Pope and the Nazis were holding a gun to my head? I would say: "F' you Nazi scum and spit on them."

Being in charge of millions of other people may oblige You to think about consequences. And see point 1 as well.

Maybe Stalin, who had completely purged religion from daily life would and could have invaded the Vatican, and killed the Pope, but Hitler?
No chance.

I've heard that Hitler attempted kidnapping him. Also, he could get rid of pope in a more subtle ways than shooting him,.
 
MobBoss said:
My point is that the pope is a single man. Men sin. To blame the WHOLE Catholic Church for one guys (or even a handfull) error/mistake/misconduct/whatever is just stupid. Those involved are dead and gone in any event. Once more, a total non-issue brought up to merely give the Catholic Church a black eye.

I wouldn't blame the whole catholic church one pope's, or a handful of cardinals', actions during WW2. But I'll happily point the finger at them for not opening their archives to show what those actions were. As you've repeatedly said, all christians since the second one are sinners, all of them have made mistakes. But when I was forced to go to church, the teaching was about forgiveness, about owning up to your sins & mistakes, and repenting. So what justification does the church have now for not following its own advice when it comes to individuals' sins?
 
CivGeneral said:
In October 1941 Harold Tittman, a U.S. delegate to the Vatican, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities against Jews; Pius replied that the Vatican wished to remain "neutral," reiterating the neutrality policy which Pius invoked as early as September 1940.

Why did I have the impression that Christ said something about "either warm or cold"? Since when it is allowed, under Christianity, to stay "neutral" in ethical issues?

CivGeneral said:
Only one was never wrong: Jesus. All the rest of us sin on a daily basis. To try and deny it is just plain stupid.
Isn't the pope considered unmistaken also in certain aspects? Couldn't he speak under this authority if he wanted to?
 
sanabas said:
I wouldn't blame the whole catholic church one pope's, or a handful of cardinals', actions during WW2. But I'll happily point the finger at them for not opening their archives to show what those actions were. As you've repeatedly said, all christians since the second one are sinners, all of them have made mistakes. But when I was forced to go to church, the teaching was about forgiveness, about owning up to your sins & mistakes, and repenting. So what justification does the church have now for not following its own advice when it comes to individuals' sins?

The point here is one asks for forgiveness from God and repents. Hopefully those involved did indeed confess their sins to God and asked for forgiveness and repented. However, the principles involved those many years ago are all dead. Who owing what apology to whom is a moot issue today. Let the dead bury the dead.

I for one think such allegations to be largely conspiratory in nature. So the pope kept his opinion to himself instead of speaking out against Hitler. There will always be those who say this was because he supported Hitler and there will always be those who say he kept his silence in order to protect christians from reprisal if he had spoken out.

Me? I find if far more plausible to believe that he didnt speak out because of fear of reprisal. But to each his own.

atreas said:
Why did I have the impression that Christ said something about "either warm or cold"? Since when it is allowed, under Christianity, to stay "neutral" in ethical issues?

You take this out of context. Be either warm or cold in regards to faith in God - the lukewarm he will spit out upon the ground. Its not a proscription to be pro or con everyday issues, but rather a call to either be a believing christian or not, but dont be a fence sitter when it comes to God.
 
ComradeDavo said:
Still waiting for you to refute that point CivGeneral!!!
Some of us have lives outside of CFC ya know :rolleyes: :p. Plus I am not realy in the mood to refute that anti-Catholic tripe.

ComradeDavo said:
Ok, to pick one of the important point sin the article, how to your respond to this? -

''While we wait for the church to catch up with the rest of the world, what is known for certain from other sources is that in 1933 as Vatican representative in Germany, the future Pius XII had agreed a treaty with Hitler, whose authoritarian tendencies he admired, to close down the Catholic -dominated Centre Party, one of National Socialism's staunchest opponents. This treaty was based on the Vatican's 1929 agreement with Mussolini, the Italian fascist leader''
What you have to understand is that the Papal States only consists of Vatican City during World War II unlike centuries past when there were a bunch of Papal States and the Pope had control over his land. With only one Papal State, the Vatican City is threatened by fascist dictators that were bullying other smaller and weaker nations at the time.

Hitler agreed to terms that were favorable to the Church, but he also made it clear that if the Vatican refused this offer he would impose harsh terms on Catholics throughout Germany.. Between 1933 and 1936, The Vatican filed more than 50 protests with the German govemment. The first protest - objecting to a boycott of Jewish-owned businesses - was one of 45 that the Nazis never even deigned to answer.

The Vatican was not immune to this and are forced at gunpoint to pull a Chamberland in order to ensure it's survival. Pope Pius XII and the Vatican had infact supported and aided the Jews to their safety, "During World War II, the Catholic Church, on the instructions of Pope Pius XII, sheltered Jews and other victims of the Nazis, provided falsified travel documents to those who could benefit from them, distributed food and clothing to those who suffered, comforted the injured and grieving, and transmitted vital infonnation to the Allied military leaders." (Rychlak, R)

If you go back to history during World War I, The Catholic Church along with Pope Benedict XV when Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) was charged with presenting Pope Benedict XVs peace plan to German leaders. He carried out the assignment and, while it did not directly lead to peace, several of Benedict's proposals were included a year later in President Woodrow Wilson's 14-point plan that helped bring the hostilities to an end.

" Pacelli remained in Munich after the war, and on behalf of the Holy See he negotiated a concordat (agreement or treaty) between the Vatican and the state of Bavaria. Such concordats were important to the Holy See because without them the Church might be denied the right to organize youth groups, make ecclesiastical appointments, run schools., or even conduct religious services. Later Pacelli moved to Berlin as the Vatican's representative to the Weimar Republic, where he tried, without success, to secure a concordat to guarantee the Church's rights throughout all of Germany. He was called back to Rome in December 1929, elevated to the cardinalate, and named the Vatican's Secretary of State in 1930." (Rychlak, R)

The Catholic Church has wrote the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge ("With burning anxiety") which is the strongest condemnations of the Nazi regime that the Holy See has ever published. The Vatican also had plans to make sure Nazi officals could not prohibit the distribution of this document. Unlike other encyclical documents, which are writien in Latin, Mit brennender Sorge is writien in German and smuggled into German parishes and dioceses and secretly distributed and read at the Masses on March 14, 1937. "Mit brennender Sorge condemned not only the persecution of the Church in Germany but also the neopaganism of Nazi theories, the idolizing of the state, and the use of race and bloodlines to judge human value." (Rychlak, R)

Mit brennender Sorge said:
"Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community—however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things—whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds"

Mit brennender Sorge @ The Holy See Website

The Nazis, masters of propaganda and censorship, confiscated any copies of the documents in each German parishes and dioceses. "Those distributing the encyclical were arrested, payments due to the, Church from Germany under the concordat were reduced, and several priests were subjected to trials on trumped-up currency or momfity charges. In May, Hitler was quoted in a Swiss newspaper as saying, "The Third Reich does not desire a modus vivendi with the Catholic Church, but rather its destruction with lies and dishonor, in order to make room for a German Church in which the German race will be glorified.' Pope Pius XI was henceforth considered an enemy by the Nazis."

Even Nazi Germany did not approved of Pope Pius XII's election as pope "The election of Cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism and practically determined the policies of the Vatican under his predecessor." - Morgenpost.

There are reasons why Pope Pius XII's decision to speak softly as he took on dangerous life saving acts. Neutrality reconition permitted the Pope to offer his services as a peace broker which permited the Vatican to cross behind enemy lines to feed, clothe, and care for the victims of the war. It also serves as a communication between the Vatican and Nazi Germany to lessen the persecution of innocent Christian in Nazioccupied zones.

Pope Pius XII, in his first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus ("On the Unity of Human Society"), releced on October 1939. Pope Pius XII discussed with anguish of the outbreak of war and laid out his plan for peace. Pius XII wrote, "spreads her matemal arms towards this world not to dominate but to serve. She does not claim to take the place of other legitimate authorities in their proper spheres, but offers them her help after the example and in,the spirit of her Divine Founder Who "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38). Quoting Jesus, Pius wrote, "render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's." In short, the Church had a limited important role to play in resolving disputes in the secular world.

On the day that Germany invaded Poland in September 1st, 1939. Pius XII telegraphed the papal nuncio in Warsaw with specific instructions to organize Polish Jews for passage into Palestine. One of the terms that is crucial to the concordat with Germany was that German officals were to regard baptized Jews as Christians accordingly. "In all these painful matters I have referred to the Holy See and simply carried out the Pope's orders: first and foremost to save Jewish lives." - Angelo Roncalli, Future Pope John XIII.
 
In March 1939, Pius obtained 3,000 visas for European Jews who had been baptized and converted to Catholicism to go to Brazil, although two-thirds of these were later revoked for "improper conduct" (i.e. continuing to practice Judaism). [31] In April 1939, Pius lifted the ban on Action Française in France, a virulently anti-semitic and anti-communist organization.[32]

In 1941 Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna informed Pius of Jewish deportations in Vienna.[34] Later that year, when asked by French Marshal Henri Philippe Petain if the Vatican objected to anti-Jewish laws, Pius responded that the church condemned racism, but would not comment on specific rules.[35] Similarly, when Petain's puppet government adopted the "Jewish statutes," the Vichy ambassador to the Vatican, Leon Berard, was told that the legislation did not conflict with Catholic teachings.[36] Valerio Valeri, the nuncio to France was "embarrassed" when he learned of this publicly from Petain[37] and personally checked the information with Cardinal Secretary of State Maglione[38] who confirmed the Vatican's position.[39] In September 1941 Pius objected to a Slovakian Jewish Code[40], which, unlike the earlier Vichy codes, prohibitted intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews.[41] In October 1941 Harold Tittman, a U.S. delegate to the Vatican, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities against Jews; Pius replied that the Vatican wished to remain "neutral,"[42] reiterating the neutrality policy which Pius invoked as early as September 1940.[43]

In 1942, the Slovakian charge d'affaires, told Pius that Slovakian Jews were being sent to death camps.[44] In August 1942, by which time it has been estimated than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, in response to a letter from Andrej Septyckyj, Pius advised Septyckyj to "bear adversity with serene patience" (a quote from Psalms).[45] On 18 September 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini (who would later become Pope Paul VI), wrote to Pius, "the massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms."[46] Later that month, when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned Pius that silence on the Holocaust would hurt the Vatican's "moral prestigue"—a warning which was echoed simultaneously by representatives from Great Britain, Brazil, Uruguay, Belgium, and Poland[47]— the Cardinal Secretary of State replied that the "rumors" about crimes committed against Jews could not be verified.[48] In December 1942, when Tittman Cardinal Secretary of State Maglione if the Pius would issue a proclamation simialar to the Allied declaration "German Policy of Extermination of the Jewish Race," Maglione replied that the Vatican was "unable to denounce publicly particular atrocities."[49]

Doesn't sound particularly opposing anti-semitism, does it?
In fact, it sounds rather anti-semitic.
 
I don't blaim the church for defending itself against a force willing to destroy it.
Well, it is easy to see where you come from, anyway i will try to give you some clues about this matter.

Lets see... The military cup in Spain was supported since the first day by the Catholic Church. No because they were being estroyed or anything since the war had not started yet. In fact church supported every military cup in Spain since the 19th century. Dont forget Franco raised against a democratic governmet that was not comunist force willing to destroy anything but a coalition of parties, the Frente Popular. Globaly it was center-left. It was certainly very liberal (in European sense), and far too advanced for the church in all aspects. The comunist parties began to be important only during the war. But in any case it is irrelevant if they were liberals or comunist or whatever since they were elected DEMOCRATICALLY.

Historically the Spanish church supported not only Franco but all the forms of absolutism and was against any form of advance. Of course they were where the money and the power was, against any social changes dangerous for his own privileged status. When we refer to a rich person that works very little we say "He lives better than a priest".

For instance, at a more local level, they were always with the rich brutal rural oligarchy, "terratenientes", supporting a form of feudalism even worse than the medieval one. So it was logical to rural people to have a resentiment against the church if they were not rich or stupid. These are indeed the causes for the attacks on the church you have heard about.

Of course fascists and Church continued working together until the last day of the dictatorship, 40 years after the war and there is no doubt that if it were for the Catholic Church Spain would be a theocratic dictatorship right now.
 
nonconformist said:
Doesn't sound particularly opposing anti-semitism, does it?
In fact, it sounds rather anti-semitic.
And what source did you get that from? I most certanly do not believe in such accusations. Here is a conclusion form "Pius XII and the Jews" from the New York times

New York Times said:
Silent, Pope Pius XII and the Roman Catholic Church were not.

Pope Pius XII and the Roman Catholic Church did much throughout the war to bring the world’s attention to the plight of the Jews of Europe, to reverse the genocidal policies and practices of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and the regimes operating in the conquered countries of Europe, and to assist tens of thousands of Jews to survive and escape these regimes and their death camps. This is proved simply by looking at the New York Times of the period. The Times reported that the pope was not silent concerning the Jews, and applauded him for what he did do and say--often. Whatever the editorial policy of the Times or the background of the reporters and their work, the newspaper itself proved that the pope was not silent, and that the Church was quite active during the war.

Following the war, numerous tributes were made to the Pope by members of the Jewish Community world-wide. On December 1, 1944 the Times reported that the World Jewish Congress publicly thanked the Holy See’s protection of Jews, especially in Hungary; in October, 1945, the World Jewish Congress made a financial gift to the Vatican in recognition of the Vatican’s work to save the Jews; in May, 1955, the Israel Philharmonic played at the Vatican as a gesture of thanks to the pope for his services to Jews during the war. At the pope’s death, numerous tributes were made, so many that the Times could list only the names of their authors in the October 9, 10, and 11 issues. For example, in the October 9, 1958 issue: Rabbi Maurice N. Eisendrath, President of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (p. 24, 2); the Synagogue Council of America (p. 21, 12); in the October 9, 1958 issue: Bernard Baruch; Rabbi Theodore L. Adams, president of the Synagogue Council of America; Irving M. Engel, president of he American Jewish Committee, and Jacob Blaustein and Joseph M. Proshauer, honorary presidents, (p. 12, 1); Rabbi Joachim Prinz, president of the American Jewish Congress; Dr. Israel Goldstein, chairman of the Western Hemisphere Executive of the World Jewish Congress; Rabbi Alan Steinech, president of the New York Board of Rabbis; Mrs. Moise S. Cahn, president of the National Council of Jewish Women; Rabbi Jacob P. Rudin, president of the Central Conference of American Rabbis, (p.12, 1); in the October 10, 1958 issue: Rabbi Emanual Rockman, president of the Rabbinical Council of America; Isaac H. Herzog (p. 13, 2); October 11, 1958 issue among the tributes was one by the Jewish Labor Committee (p. 2, 5). All referred to the work the Pope and the Vatican had done to save the Jew and humanity during the Second World War. In the October 12, 1958 number, the Times reported the numerous memorial services for the late pope in the synagogues of New York City. (p. 5, 1-2) On October 10, 1958, the Times reported that Leonard Bernstein began the performance of the New York Philharmonic the previous evening with a tribute by Harold C. Schonberg, and by Mr. Bernstein asking the audience to stand in silence for one minute, in tribute to Pius XII. (p. 35, 4)

Among the very many tributes to Pope Pius XII printed or mentioned by the Times, there was only one negative, coming from Paris. The communist official organ L’Humanite accused the late pope of allowing his doctrinal condemnation of Marxist atheism “to be transformed into an arm of anti-Soviet policy in Europe and the world.” While the pope had spoken out against the arms race, the communist paper contended, criticism should be made against the pope “for not having taken a stand against the Nazi concentration camps during the war.” (N.Y. Times, October 11, 1958, p. 2, 4-5) The origin of the false accusation that Pope Pius XII had been silent concerning the Holocaust, was Soviet Russia. It was propaganda for communist ends.

As seen in the news reports and editorials of the New York Times during the war years, contemporary evidence shows everyone knew the pope was speaking about the Jews in his numerous condemnations of Nazi policies. It was clear the pope was speaking about their situation and trials, but in religious terms. He spoke on a higher moral level than merely condemning individual actions. The condemnations were clear, and were understood by his contemporaries. The pope and the Church had not been silent.

The efforts to save the Jews by Popes Pius XI and Pius XII, and by the Catholic hierarchies of Europe were only part of a greater good the Church tried to accomplish: the protection of all human persons. This was threatened by the enslavement by totalitarian governments of all peoples of the world. The attempted extermination of the Jews and of the Church by the Nazi government was very real. The Church’s work was to uphold and defend the foundational truth that the human person is the image of God.

Stalin’s cynical question about the pope’s power was an important one: “How many divisions has the Pope?” Stalin was correct then and now: the pope may condemn moral wrongs in the world, but he has no military might to support his words. Pius XII did strongly and clearly condemn the Nazi and Fascist government extermination of the European Jewish community. But he had only words and prayers in his armory. Hitler was moved by neither; he respected only guns and armies. None but Hitler and the Allied forces could stop the killing. Hitler refused; the Allies arrived too late.

We must never forget the tragedy of the Holocaust of World War II. We must, likewise, never forget the efforts of Pius XI and Pius XII to save the Jews and to save mankind from debasement and destruction at the hands of the Nazi machine and the totalitarian governments.

Source
 
The first concentration camps opened in 1933.
Yes, but many countries had concentration camps at that time. Even America had concentration camps. They were large prisons. Only after Germany turned them into Death camps in the 40's did other countries start changing the names of their camps.

Hitler was as anti-Catholic as some of the posters here. He was anti-Christian. He knew Jesus was Jewish and considered Christianity as a Jewish attempt to control Europeans. But he knew he couldn't come out against them right away, or he would loose popularity. If the Church had made major moves against the Facists, the Church leaders would have been replaced by more docile Church members. The Pope remaining quiet about teh Nazis kept many Catholics out of the death chambers themselves.
 
GeorgeOP said:
Hitler was as anti-Catholic as some of the posters here.
Just a word of warning, I have gotten introuble by calling poster's statements "anti-Catholic" while other people mis-interperated me as calling other people "anti-Catholic". :(
 
CivGeneral said:
And what source did you get that from? I most certanly do not believe in such accusations. Here is a conclusion form "Pius XII and the Jews" from the New York times
It's all from dear old Wikipedia, where most of your quotes are from.
 
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