Remake Science History.

[Naokaukodem]

Civ is about remake History. So I propose to go a little deeper in this concept, in proposing more flexibility in the tech tree.

It would become possible to discover, for example, Gunpowder in Antiquity.

It is about guessing (by the developpers) the "real" tech path of technologies, instead of simply follow the order that happened in the real world.

Of course, it would need some serious thinking from the developpers.

A constant and viable thing that we can reffer to to guess alternate tech paths are tools. Indeed, the complexity of tools is done by a natural path of self-improving. Tools help to create others more complicated tools, and this cannot being shorcuted in any way.

So instead of refearing to bare technologies in order to determine any notion of successiveness, it would be determined by the complexity of tools.

All the other factors would become random, and change greatly from games to games.

Maybe the thinking of the developpers would not result in having Gunpowder in Antiquity, but you got the picture.

 

[Camikaze]

I don't think that this idea of random discovery is very good. It wouldn't be viable due to the fact that prerequisites are needed for practically everything for a reason. That technology needs prerequisites to support it. For example, it would be ridiculous if, in a game, you randomly acquired Fusion in 1000 BC. This may seem like an extreme example, but the principle is the same as in any other random technological acquisition- it just wouldn't happen, or at least not to the same level or complexity.

I'm a bit confused as to the OP. Could you perhaps explain these 'tools' a bit more?

 

[Naokaukodem]

Thanks for the answer.

Google gives me 3 translations of the french word "outils": tools, things, and gear. Maybe that helps you out a little.

The only thing why Fusion could not been discovered in 1000 BC is because people, even they could have imagine the concept, could not build it.

Currently, people build things with other things. They started to build hammers with iron. With hammers, they started to shape a variety of tools, to help them in many ways. With those tools, they built other things, etc... until Industrial Era where they could build huge things in iron.

This is IMO the only thing that prevents high technologies to be efficient until a certain amount of time. The principle of Steam Power were discovered in Antiquity, but people did not know how to build iron steam machines. Or maybe they could, I don't know. That would be the work of the developpers to determine if they could, and let the players have the possibility to build them or not in Antiquity.

 

[Camikaze]

I'm just using my computer's translator here, but did you mean something like composants or technologique friandise (components & technological tidbits, respectively)?

 

[Naokaukodem]

I'm just using my computer's translator here, but did you mean something like composants or technologique friandise (components & technological tidbits, respectively)?

"technologique friandise" "friandise" means candy.

To make short, a hammer is a tool, a clamp is a tool, a saw is a tool... am i right?

 

[Camikaze]

Damn lying computer translator.

I was meaning it in the sense of a small bit of technological knowledge.

And, yes, you're right, all those things are tools, but the creation and development of tools is more something to do with a singular technology (machinery) than with the development of all technologies in general, and that is where my confusion came from. How would the development of tools facilitate the early discovery of gunpowder?

 

[Naokaukodem]

How would the development of tools facilitate the early discovery of gunpowder?

It would rather slow down it than facilitate it. To use gunpowder, you need to know how to create a canon in iron, because wood may not be strong enough. But maybe such a thing could be made in Antiquity?

What I'm trying to explain is that current Civ tech tree is modeled on the History tech tree. But, because we discovered a tech in Reality after another one, does not mean that we couldn't discover it before. Try to imagine what an Extraterrestrial Civilization or pack or Extraterrestrial Civilizations History could look like. It may differ more or less from the Terrestrial ones.

And to temper this view, I assert that tools (and machines) may follow a rule of complexity based on self-improving[EDIT], so that there may be indeed a rough notion of successiveness[/EDIT].

 

[Hail]

so how would your idea work gamewise? as i can see, you propose to drop the tech preqs and replace them with some other requirements? similar ideas where proposed earlier: inland civs cannot research naval techs and visa versa. something like that, but how will it work ingame? how can it be balanced?

 

[Naokaukodem]

I don't know certainly how it would work in the game.

Maybe Blind Research should interact. You have a reasearch rate and toggle bar, but you can't pick wich tech you want to discover? This way, alls techs would have the same chance to be discovered [edit](but there would still be a tech tree, directed by complexity of tools)[/EDIT], except if they have already been discovered by another civ. Maybe the weight of the tech (percentage chance of being discovered) would be influenced by things like you are a neighbour of the civ, or took one of his city.

 

[Hail]

Of course, it would need some serious thinking from the developpers.

it would need some serious thinking from you. pretend you are the game designer telling the programmers what to do.

I don't know certainly how it would work in the game.

Maybe Blind Research should interact. You have a reasearch rate and toggle bar, but you can't pick wich tech you want to discover? This way, alls techs would have the same chance to be discovered [edit](but there would still be a tech tree, directed by complexity of tools)[/EDIT], except if they have already been discovered by another civ. Maybe the weight of the tech (percentage chance of being discovered) would be influenced by things like you are a neighbour of the civ, or took one of his city.

maybe. maybe i love soft elastic breasts. i do not know how it would work gamewise, but hell i would love to see them in the game.

the point being if you thought of something please thinkout the realization. if you cannot or unsure, don't create a new thread. there is a great thead the civ5 wishlist. post it there. i do not read such threads since they are full of ideas that are either with undefined realization or unrealizable (bringing no fun, only complexity).

on topic:
so do propose to drop the tech tree(more concretely the tech's dependancies)? or replace it? if replacing it, would that not undermine the whole idea of "allowing players to shape [science] history"?
and i do not get the tool-driven tech tree: the tools came after the techs, not before. and there are techs for which a tool would seem undefined (such as "Physics", etc.).

 

[Naokaukodem]

it would need some serious thinking from you. pretend you are the game designer telling the programmers what to do.

Hail, why are you so agressive? It seems you didn't understand the concept.

Developpers have an incomparatively better History knowledge than myself, and I will not pass a History degree just for a game idea.

It is to developpers, if they think about this idea or read this topic and are pleased by it, to determine which and which techs could be discovered earlier. Do you want me to review all the techs possible and to determine which of them can be discovered earlier, and as a result see this energy wasted because the developpers are not interested by it? I won't waste my time for nothing, sorry.

maybe. maybe i love soft elastic breasts. i do not know how it would work gamewise, but hell i would love to see them in the game.

Is this supposed to be funny?

the point being if you thought of something please thinkout the realization. if you cannot or unsure, don't create a new thread. there is a great thead the civ5 wishlist. post it there. i do not read such threads since they are full of ideas that are either with undefined realization or unrealizable (bringing no fun, only complexity).

Dude, you asked a question, I answered to you. Why are you so fussed about it? As you suggested, back "on topic":

on topic:
so do propose to drop the tech tree(more concretely the tech's dependancies)? or replace it? if replacing it, would that not undermine the whole idea of "allowing players to shape [science] history"?

In my last post, I suggested to have a tech tree with an honourable number of techs that do not need any prerequisite, and that those techs would be acquired randomly. I don't know about the cost of them, if it would be a generic and uniform cost, or if the techs will have different costs. At first, there would be an equal chance to discover any tech, but as soon as a tech has been discovered by a civilization, it becomes more likely that other civs discover it, the strenght of this probability depending on the distance, for example, of the civs from the first civ that discovered a tech first.

and i do not get the tool-driven tech tree: the tools came after the techs, not before. and there are techs for which a tool would seem undefined (such as "Physics", etc.).

To be answered later, sorry i don't have much time for now.

[EDIT]The tools come in the same time than techs in my book. The thing is that earlier tools discovered with earlier techs will allow further techs. Hammers and saws will allow you to build a house.

Phisics the way we undertand it in the modern era are certainlypossible due to a variety of instruments that could not be built in the ancient era. Yet, rough Phisics are born in the Ancient Era.[/EDIT]

 

[CivMyWay]

If I see developers spelled wrong one more time, I may have a cardiac arrest. Sorry, Naok; I don't like this idea.

 

[Camikaze]

Prerequisite technologies aren't in place because they are historically accurate, but because it was physically impossible to create a technology without its prerequisite. For instance, you simply cannot have Robotics without Computers, or Astronomy without Optics, etc.

 

[AndrewCree]

Science of the Discworld 3: Darwins Watch seems to cover the idea behind this very well in chapter 18 "Steam Engine Time".

 

[Hail]

Hail, why are you so agressive? It seems you didn't understand the concept.

no i do not. and don't tell it's my problem.

Developpers have an incomparatively better History knowledge than myself, and I will not pass a History degree just for a game idea.

really?? they do not. my guess is that the coders have a degree in IT. the game devs have, well, probably also a degree in IT. and the managers of all sorts have degrees in economics. i do not think that any game dev company actually hires professional historians to aid them.

It is to developpers, if they think about this idea or read this topic and are pleased by it, to determine which and which techs could be discovered earlier. Do you want me to review all the techs possible and to determine which of them can be discovered earlier, and as a result see this energy wasted because the developpers are not interested by it? I won't waste my time for nothing, sorry.

nope. just 2 examples would suffice. let's say "Gunpower" and "Banking". all the others will be done by analogy.

Is this supposed to be funny?

no. you were supposed to see an analogy.

Prerequisite technologies aren't in place because they are historically accurate, but because it was physically impossible to create a technology without its prerequisite. For instance, you simply cannot have Robotics without Computers, or Astronomy without Optics, etc.

true!

 

[Naokaukodem]

If I see developers spelled wrong one more time, I may have a cardiac arrest.

Sorry, I must been mistaken by the french version of this word, spelled "développeurs". Developers in english takes only one "p", ok then.

Sorry, Naok; I don't like this idea.

Why?

Prerequisite technologies aren't in place because they are historically accurate, but because it was physically impossible to create a technology without its prerequisite. For instance, you simply cannot have Robotics without Computers, or Astronomy without Optics, etc.

Robotics and Astronomy are submitted to machines/tools that have been build on the basis of another machines/tools.

Science of the Discworld 3: Darwins Watch seems to cover the idea behind this very well in chapter 18 "Steam Engine Time".

So at least there is 1 guy who understood me. What is Science of the Discworld 3: Darwins Watch? I know Discword by Pratchett, although i never read any of his books.

 

[Naokaukodem]

no i do not. and don't tell it's my problem.

I don't say it's your problem, I say you come and insult people whether you even did not undertand their posts.

really?? they do not. my guess is that the coders have a degree in IT. the game devs have, well, probably also a degree in IT. and the managers of all sorts have degrees in economics. i do not think that any game dev company actually hires professional historians to aid them.

They may not have a degree in History (for what you know! ) but they are certainly very awared of History, their knowledge is huge.

nope. just 2 examples would suffice. let's say "Gunpower" and "Banking". all the others will be done by analogy.

I don't know if i really want to spend energy to explain you something that I already answered partially. (about Gunpowder)

About Banking, it is obvious that we couldn't have it until Money is discovered, yet Money would need no prerequisite especially when it comes to markets (that do not need any money).

no. you were supposed to see an analogy.

Wow. So it is an analogy (sweet word ) to help to discuss the subject other than trying to troll? Wow. You are the master!

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: Please keep it civil - discuss the topic not each other.

 

[rysmiel]

It would rather slow down it than facilitate it. To use gunpowder, you need to know how to create a canon in iron, because wood may not be strong enough.

Not if all you use it for is bombs, perhaps.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Not if all you use it for is bombs, perhaps.

A la Saroumane.