Removal of Poland

[Tigranes]

That'll be my stance as well. Regulars can tweak the game themselves as much as they like, and with Poland and some of the other new civs it's even made easy for everyone. And well, yes, as a human player it's an extra challenge we can't avoid, true, but don't we deserve that as the trade-off for knowing a lot of things the AI doesn't? I'm fine with Poland as it is.

By the way, how exactly do you go about disabling things?

 

[Tigranes]

OK Leoreth you win. By refusing to remove Poland you leave me no choice.

Wow, it takes you only one day to give up on something Why bother to start a thread with such an attitude? Only those who are fully convinced can expect to be somewhat convincing.

Did anyone ever count what is the ratio of European tiles with resources vs total Europe tiles?

And I think the record was that Paris can get total of 9 resources in it's BFC, or there is a city that can beat it?

 

[Leoreth]

OK Leoreth you win. By refusing to remove Poland you leave me no choice.

Here's a secret: I always win

Here are some suggestions on how to buff Poland.

- Improved UP: Golden Liberty
Foreign Culture causes no Unhappiness or Instability, and is dominated by your Culture in your cities BFCs (meaning, you always control your cities' BFCs regardless of Foreign Culture).
^ The second half of this UP (new addition) is the Chola UP of RFCA as well as the Serbian UP of RFCE++. In both of those mods, the UP makes a small, late spawning civ in a crowded location viable by giving them necessary room. Poland in DoC faces the exact same problem.

So with your following revision, basically a free vassalage effect? Maybe only for historical tiles to avoid weird exploits? Sounds good.

- Hidden Boosts to Religions
More religions should spread automatically to Poland. Let more Missionaries (Catholic and Orthodox) spawn in Poland some time after its spawn like how Orthodox Missionaries spawn for Russia and Buddhist Missionaries spawn for China.

Make Polish AI prioritize religious buildings, esp. Monasteries since it's the best way for Poland to get decent Culture and Tech rate.

Missionary spawns sound good, and I'll also revisit their normal spread rates.

And I have to take a look at Sobieski's AI.

- UB: Extra Happiness
The Polish UB, given what it represents (pre-Modern democracy), befits an extra (+2 would be appropriate and comparable to Theocracy) Happiness bonus. An earlier form of the American UP, if you will, but with the purpose of making City States more viable as opposed to Republic.

Sounds good.

- UU: Hidden Tech Discount
AI Poland needs to be made to prioritize Music => Military Tradition. Perhaps a hidden discount in the research cost for Military Tradition is in order.

Their research speed as a whole might need to be improved. I'll take a look at the current AI weights.

- Map: Independent Memel/Danzig/Riga to flip to Poland
The best way to avoid AI settling of crappy city sites is to settle cities for them.

Isn't the usual first city they found Medvegalis or Gdansk anyway?

(2) The areas around Poland is still unrealistically food rich allowing for some absurd supercities easily capable of surpassing New York, London, or Tokyo.

Fun fact: I did not add a single food resource in Eastern Europe.

By the way, how exactly do you go about disabling things?

Assets\XML\GlobalDefinesAlt.xml, instructions are inside the file (it's just changing one value).

 

[Lone Wolf]

Assets\XML\GlobalDefinesAlt.xml, instructions are inside the file (it's just changing one value).

Or just go to Python files and change their spawn date to 2100 or something.

 

[Hippo8085]

Isn't the usual first city they found Medvegalis or Gdansk anyway?

In our dreams. Kovno or Tiraspol. Almost every time.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Wow, it takes you only one day to give up on something Why bother to start a thread with such an attitude? Only those who are fully convinced can expect to be somewhat convincing.

When the best option does not work I move on to the second best one. That is how I function. I do not form emotional attachments to my ideas like most people do. And I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone over the internet, nor have I ever tried. All I want is to make this game more fun for me and I can do that in one way or another.

But enough. This has nothing to do with the game.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Here's a secret: I always win

That you do.

So with your following revision, basically a free vassalage effect? Maybe only for historical tiles to avoid weird exploits? Sounds good.

Yes. But you may want to include Contested tiles as well (I'm not sure if you mean to include that in Historical tiles or not). Poland's stability map consists mostly of Core and Contested tiles (yet another sign of crowding). And they could use a few more Contested tiles towards the Black Sea.

While this may appear OP, no amount of Culture can save you from Cossack or Panzer SODs so it's OK.

Their research speed as a whole might need to be improved. I'll take a look at the current AI weights.

They already start with a good amount of techs. Their UHV time frame is very short so that tech rate adjustments won't affect things very much during that period anyway.

My advice is to let them start with Music, Guilds, and Calendar (maybe even Compass) but keep their tech rate as it is now. This way they will have a shorter path towards Military Tradition + Astronomy but will not become OP in late game.

Isn't the usual first city they found Medvegalis or Gdansk anyway?

It's more likely that they found Kovno, or some other city 1 tile away from the Baltic coast. If AI Russia is doing bad (say if the Mongols take Moscow) AI Poland will settle even more non-coastal cities close together.

Fun fact: I did not add a single food resource in Eastern Europe.

Really? I remember you adding at least one Wheat, not when you added Poland, but around the time of the HRE-Prussia split.

 

[Leoreth]

And by the way, this is exactly why your comments are always very constructive and useful to work with. Because even when we're disagreeing on something, you can come up with something which works within the narrow confines of what I've arrogantly labeled as negotiable at the moment.

I don't get the people who try to "win" an argument with me as if that would really accomplish anything.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Yes. But you may want to include Contested tiles as well

The westernmost line of Polish contesteds is in solid, rock-hard Germany, so I don't think that it's a good idea (actually, another sign of crowding)

 

[Leoreth]

Yes. But you may want to include Contested tiles as well (I'm not sure if you mean to include that in Historical tiles or not). Poland's stability map consists mostly of Core and Contested tiles (yet another sign of crowding).

Yep. Stable area, basically.

They already start with a good amount of techs. Their UHV time frame is very short so that tech rate adjustments won't affect things very much anyway.

My advice is to let them start with Music, Guilds, and Calendar but keep their tech rate as it is now. This way they will have a shorter path towards Military Tradition + Astronomy but will not become OP in late game.

That could work too. Although Poland already has enough techs that they spawn with a higher score than the HRE which is a bit weird.

It's more likely that they found Kovno, or some other city 1 tile away from the Baltic coast. If AI Russia is doing bad (say if the Mongols take Moscow) they will settle even more non-coastal cities close together.

Let me try to adjust the settler maps first then.

Really? I remember you adding at least one Wheat, not when you added Poland, but around the time of the HRE-Prussia split.

I added a wheat for Berlin, which is accessible from Krakow, granted.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

And by the way, this is exactly why your comments are always very constructive and useful to work with. Because even when we're disagreeing on something, you can come up with something which works within the narrow confines of what I've arrogantly labeled as negotiable at the moment.

I don't get the people who try to "win" an argument with me as if that would really accomplish anything.

Hahaha! I literally LOLed. IRL.

I signed up on this forum because I want to make this mod (and a few others, but mostly this mod) better so that it'd be more fun for me. That's the reason I post here. Winning arguments (against anyone) is not (I find the very idea laughable tbh).

You have every reason to be "arrogant" since you do all the actual work. This is your masterpiece and we are all just happy to be part of it.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

That could work too. Although Poland already has enough techs that they spawn with a higher score than the HRE which is a bit weird.

Barbarossa (and perhaps other AIs too) has a weird tendency of not trading techs, even with their Vassals.

I've seen AI HRE vassalizes the Vikings peacefully (because the Vikings are severely weakened by war against me (England) and Russia), but then the HRE still does not trade or demand techs which they don't have (Civil Service and Compass in this case, which they can get by offering Engineering + a variety of other techs) from the Vikings.

In comparison at least 2 other AIs, Genghis Khan and Catherine, are very fond of demanding techs from other civs. Perhaps this should be a more general trait for technologically backward but militarily powerful civs.

 

[Leoreth]

Agreed (and to be honest, good design of the LH personalities is probably one of the most neglected aspects of this mod).

The more I think about this, the more I wonder whether there is still a good reason to allow peace-vassalization at all. Most of the times I see it, it looks wrong.

 

[Lone Wolf]

What about my map change proposal? Also, if we implement iOnlySignIn's idea, then perhaps the westernmost contested Polish strip, the one west of Oder, shouldn't be affected?

 

[Jusos2108]

Barbarossa (and perhaps other AIs too) has a weird tendency of not trading techs, even with their Vassals.

I've seen AI HRE vassalizes the Vikings peacefully (because the Vikings are severely weakened by war against me (England) and Russia), but then the HRE still does not trade or demand techs which they don't have (Civil Service and Compass in this case, which they can get by offering Engineering + a variety of other techs) from the Vikings.

On the contrary, Barbarossa is usually a great tech trading partner. I have also seen Vikings capitulate HRE many times, but never peace vassalise to HRE, so things aren't that black and white.

 

[Leoreth]

What about my map change proposal? Also, if we implement iOnlySignIn's idea, then perhaps the westernmost contested Polish strip, the one west of Oder, shouldn't be affected?

Map change? I think I've missed that.

I'm working off his later proposal to keep the first ring of all cities unaffected by this new UP, which would keep the territory west of the Oder in German hands if Berlin is present.

 

[Hippo8085]

Map change is to move Scandinavia north one row, inserting an extra row in Germany. 11th post of this thread, though it could use a little work.

 

[Cosmos1985]

Agreed (and to be honest, good design of the LH personalities is probably one of the most neglected aspects of this mod).

The more I think about this, the more I wonder whether there is still a good reason to allow peace-vassalization at all. Most of the times I see it, it looks wrong.

The AI should probably be slightly more reluctant to peace-vassalize, but it can also be a smart and meaningful choice to seek protection from a stronger civ even before a war has broken out. I don't think it should be disallowed completely, if that's what you're considering.

 

[trfyrktrv]

About map changes, what do you think of the removal of austrian alps (Three mountains) to move Austria's core one tile south?In order to let more space to Prussia/Poland

 

[Lone Wolf]

Map change? I think I've missed that.

Yeah, post 11 of this thread.

I'm working off his later proposal to keep the first ring of all cities unaffected by this new UP,

Nice idea.