Research Request(s)

[Raledon]

There does need to be a bit of rationalization of the bonuses.

However if you don't have the camel domestication tech then all you can do with camels is eat them. You can't effectively herd or work with them so basically you don't have them. To be a bit more precise the improved bonus camels refers to something you can use either in agriculture, war, trade or entertainment. All of these require that the camels have been trained to be handled by humans and to put up with the noises and other animals that humans have.

In theory capturing the city should give you some points towards any of the techs the city had that you don't but that is not the way Civ IV is coded. As far as I can tell you can only award points towards the current tech. In Civ III I think you could.

I suppose it's the issue of expectation then, that I thought that if you could place them in a pasture, you could also sell them.
Regarding reseach, you get some research points towards techs you lack. It's not much, but it's something.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I suppose it's the issue of expectation then, that I thought that if you could place them in a pasture, you could also sell them.
Regarding reseach, you get some research points towards techs you lack. It's not much, but it's something.

Sounds like we need to make sure that you have the tech for the pasture and the bonus. I think we can do that.

 

[raxo2222]

It is safer to not have manufactured style resources tied to techs simply because

1. If the building changes techs then you have to remember to change the bonus also.
   
   
2. You don't need to know the tech that is needed to build the building for a bonus (eg bicycle) in order to be able to import the bonus. This is especially important for luxury goods.

Is there a reason to unlock resources from building in techs, if the providing buildings are behind techs?
I mean, if it's impossible to get Bugs without a building from the Scavenger tech, why bother having them unlocked? It will just bloat to the tech with useless information.

We have exactly 333 manufactured resources tied directly to tech.
Did you saw pedia (with toffer overhault its much faster) or my excel resource list, that I posted few posts earlier?
Having all 338 manufactured resources wouldn't bloat tech tree.

Is decoupling manufactured resources from tech tree work in progress?

 

[Thunderbrd]

In theory capturing the city should give you some points towards any of the techs the city had that you don't but that is not the way Civ IV is coded.

Actually, although we changed it from getting alot of research towards one tech they have that you don't to getting a little towards quite a few techs they have that you don't, warfare and invasion of a nation more advanced than you is a powerful method of catching up due to the research you get towards the techs they know that you don't when you capture a city.

 

[JosEPh_II]

These 2 need changed for the Enhanced Tech Conquest found in the caveman2cosmos ini:

They are both set too low, and as such make getting Tech or even partial tech from capturing a city negligible .
# Increase or decrease the value to change the base technology transfer
# percentage amount.
# Default value is 25
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 5

# Increase or decrease the value to change the percent amount per city
# population that will be used to transfer technology to the new owners of
# the conquered city.
# Default value is 5
Percentage Per City Population = 1

The bottom one needs to go back to it's original default of 5, the Top one needs to be closer to the default value. 5 is way too low.

The arguments used to set these 2 at these low levels just does not pan out in game.

 

[Thunderbrd]

These 2 need changed for the Enhanced Tech Conquest found in the caveman2cosmos ini:

They are both set too low, and as such make getting Tech or even partial tech from capturing a city negligible .
# Increase or decrease the value to change the base technology transfer
# percentage amount.
# Default value is 25
Base Technology Transfer Percent = 5

# Increase or decrease the value to change the percent amount per city
# population that will be used to transfer technology to the new owners of
# the conquered city.
# Default value is 5
Percentage Per City Population = 1

The bottom one needs to go back to it's original default of 5, the Top one needs to be closer to the default value. 5 is way too low.

The arguments used to set these 2 at these low levels just does not pan out in game.

I agree its too low. I feel it used to be too high and now that we are getting the benefit towards more than one tech, we should be careful not to raise it too high or you might as well base most of your research strategy on conquest. The original defaults were very strong. Just urging a little moderation here. But yeah it is set too low and is too insignificant atm.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We have exactly 333 manufactured resources tied directly to tech.
Did you saw pedia (with toffer overhault its much faster) or my excel resource list, that I posted few posts earlier?
Having all 338 manufactured resources wouldn't bloat tech tree.

Is decoupling manufactured resources from tech tree work in progress?

Which is completely wrong for many of the manufactured goods. You should be able to trade for them before you can build them. Not every country makes computers, most import them. Having them tied to a tech stops that from being possible.

It has nothing to do with the tech tree and everything to do with reality and helping your allies or making money.

 

[raxo2222]

Which is completely wrong for many of the manufactured goods. You should be able to trade for them before you can build them. Not every country makes computers, most import them. Having them tied to a tech stops that from being possible.

It has nothing to do with the tech tree and everything to do with reality and helping your allies or making money.

I made list of these resources.
Which ones shouldn't be tied to tech and which ones should be?
What about obsoleting resources?
You still can sell them to less developed countries or aliens if they ever happen as space version of barbarians or stuff like that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Which is completely wrong for many of the manufactured goods. You should be able to trade for them before you can build them. Not every country makes computers, most import them. Having them tied to a tech stops that from being possible.

It has nothing to do with the tech tree and everything to do with reality and helping your allies or making money.

So you are saying that the trade technology for a resource and the tech that opens up the manner in which you access it, such as a building, should differ, with the trade technology being much earlier? I can often agree with that though sometimes you might not have the knowledge to apply the resource even if you had it. Depends on the situation I suppose.

 

[raxo2222]

So you are saying that the trade technology for a resource and the tech that opens up the manner in which you access it, such as a building, should differ, with the trade technology being much earlier? I can often agree with that though sometimes you might not have the knowledge to apply the resource even if you had it. Depends on the situation I suppose.

Well for example Bugs doesn't have reveal/enable tech at all.
That is as soon you get building producing them you can trade and use them.

 

[Toffer90]

So you are saying that the trade technology for a resource and the tech that opens up the manner in which you access it, such as a building, should differ, with the trade technology being much earlier? I can often agree with that though sometimes you might not have the knowledge to apply the resource even if you had it. Depends on the situation I suppose.

Reminds me of a conversation we had a couple of years back: Link

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Bicycles for example are a manufactured resource that should have no reveal or trade tech so that anyone can use them and they become available by building whatever building makes them.

Computers should have Electricity as their reveal tech, since they need it to run. Although there are those ones that are given to kids in countries that don't have an electricity grid...

This sort of thing should be part of the Research Requests discussions.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Reminds me of a conversation we had a couple of years back: Link

Still gotta work on that someday. I'm curious though, did we find there that buildings give localized access even if the resource isn't tradeable? I found trying to follow that conversation a little confusing.

Bicycles for example are a manufactured resource that should have no reveal or trade tech so that anyone can use them and they become available by building whatever building makes them.

Computers should have Electricity as their reveal tech, since they need it to run. Although there are those ones that are given to kids in countries that don't have an electricity grid...

This sort of thing should be part of the Research Requests discussions.

You mean we should be mentioning when the bonuses we're focused on should be revealed and when it should be useable/tradeable, right?

Well for example Bugs doesn't have reveal/enable tech at all.
That is as soon you get building producing them you can trade and use them.

I think I'm siding with DH on this - that this isn't really a problem. If you don't have a tech, I believe the default then means 'always can'.

This is a helpful thing for the eventual Nomadic stuff to have it work on such a default.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You mean we should be mentioning when the bonuses we're focused on should be revealed and when it should be useable/tradeable, right?

Correct. I had assumed we would eventually do all resources especially the manufactured ones.

 

[raxo2222]

I updated my resource list. Now it contains all manufactured and map bonuses.
I also added extra info if given resource is producable only if you have certian culture, or if its producable in space zone.
Some resources don't obsolete, but their all producers are obsoleted at certain point.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Which is completely wrong for many of the manufactured goods. You should be able to trade for them before you can build them. Not every country makes computers, most import them. Having them tied to a tech stops that from being possible.

It has nothing to do with the tech tree and everything to do with reality and helping your allies or making money.

I agree with DH on this. This seems like a logical way to deal with manufactured resources. If you have the minimum requirements to use a trade item you should be able to use it even if you have not discovered the tech.

The only thing I wonder is about Firearms. Historically more primitive (lower tech level) civs have been able to use firearms when they have traded for them before "discovering the tech". However are we going to assume that the ammo also comes with the firearms in said trade? Cause having guns dosn't mean you know how to make your own ammo. So what say you?

 

[Toffer90]

Still gotta work on that someday. I'm curious though, did we find there that buildings give localized access even if the resource isn't tradeable? I found trying to follow that conversation a little confusing.

Yeah, if a building provides a bonus, that bonus will be available to your nation even if you lack both the "Reveal" and "Enable" techs for it.

 

[raxo2222]

This sounds like good idea.
If manufactured resources weren't tied to tech, then how we could find "tech level" of it?
By looking on cheapest producers?

Or if we wanted to make list of resources producible in Prehistoric era, just like in this review?
Bugs were skipped in this resource review, because I didn't had them on list due to lack of reveal tech.

 

[Raledon]

I agree with DH on this. This seems like a logical way to deal with manufactured resources. If you have the minimum requirements to use a trade item you should be able to use it even if you have not discovered the tech.

The only thing I wonder is about Firearms. Historically more primitive (lower tech level) civs have been able to use firearms when they have traded for them before "discovering the tech". However are we going to assume that the ammo also comes with the firearms in said trade? Cause having guns dosn't mean you know how to make your own ammo. So what say you?

A possible issue with this sort of thing is that you cannot build firearm units without the tech that enables firearms.
This would actually mean a re-work of the tech tree, with units/buildings being unlocked earlier, and require future resources.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

A possible issue with this sort of thing is that you cannot build firearm units without the tech that enables firearms.
This would actually mean a re-work of the tech tree, with units/buildings being unlocked earlier, and require future resources.

We have been talking about implementing equipment as promotions to a unit. This is still under discussion but one possibility is that you will train a particular type of unit and it will get the best equipment available. It means splitting the cost of training from the cost of manufacturing the equipment. For example you would train a spearman but what he ends up as will depend on the equipment available ie wooden spearman, stone spearman, ... , pikeman. In the case of firearms you would train a archer style unit. As I said this is all under discussion still.