Resolved: The Ballista Elephant Is the Crappiest UU in the Game

[vicawoo]

I think the withdrawal is about as salient, since their job is to crash into cities with fortified longbows. Otherwise I would mentioned war chariots being immune to first strikes.

 

[Bhruic]

Now, of course, no UU is truly “crappy” when compared to the base unit which it replaces. They are all improvements over the standard units.

That's certainly a debatable statement.

In making the classifications, I have not attempted to list every characteristic, which would defeat the purpose of grouping similar UU’s, but rather what I feel are the most salient features of each.

Which conveniently let you "overlook" some of the important features of various UUs. For example:

Jaguar
5 str (base 6) = 20% str decrease

Dog Solider
4 str (base 5) = 25% str decrease

Numidian Cavalry
5 str (base 6) = 20% str decrease

This is what I am talking about. Look at all the other groups I’ve laid out, and then compare them to the last group.

"This" is what you're talking about? The fact you made a bunch of arbitrary groups, and the Khmer Elephant doesn't happen to fit into them? That's hardly convincing. And it completely ignores all the other variables that go into determining the usefulness of a UU.

Bh

 

[Random-X]

As I understand it, it should say "Ignores Pikemen and rapes the crap out of knights" So a stack of 5 normal elephants and 5 macemen would lose to 5 pikes and 5 Knights, but 5 UUphants and 5 maces would win.
You could argue that when you see your opponent getting to the techlevel where he gets his UU, you start building counters for that, like axemen vs Praetorians. But the elephants have no hardcounter because you cant single them out of a mixed stack. At least pikes dont work, so you have to have an equally strong mounted Unit or your cavalary is screwed. So the unit circumvents its designated hardcounter for that era, which isn't super special awesome, but still nice enough, if you got the ressources.

 

[slobberinbear]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but consider the time frame in which War Elephants are used ... late classical/medieval. In the medieval period, one of the toughest units is the Knight -- 12 strength, 2 speed. A Ballista Elephant is even-strength against a Knight and is 1/3 cheaper, though slower. Knights using flanking to get to your siege? Ballista 'phants essentially do to Knights what Knights do to siege.

Add to that the general War Elephant advantages (decently promoted, it is uncounterable 1 on 1 without pikes), and it's a worthwhile unit.

Also: while both pikes and Elephants/Ballista Es counter mounted units, which one is more generally powerful, useful and hard to counter? The 'phants, bro, and they cost the same as pikes.

I'm not saying the Ballista E is a great UU, just that it has its uses, and gives the Khmer another reason to keep 'phants in the stack for a good while.

 

[kniteowl]

When were Knights 12 str? are you talking about the UU Knight??? lol

 

[slobberinbear]

When were Knights 12 str? are you talking about the UU Knight??? lol

You're right. They're a 10. Thanks for pointing it out. Which only makes my point stronger, of course!

 

[kniteowl]

My only problem with this UU is that, if I don't have Ivory I can't build it, which can be quite annoying, it's probably harder to build them then units that require 2 resources like Iron and Horses for Knights..etc... I once was on a small continent with 2 other Civs.... and the entire continent didn't have Iron... was very annoying because my UU required Iron... I had a good start though but still no UU... *sigh* ah well every game is different lol.

I was thinking about improving by keeping it's UU but make it resourceless but decrease it's str to 6 and give it a 100% bonus vs Mounted units, they'd be similar to Pikemen except they come earlier but they wouldn't make very good city attackers, this unit would probably obsolete the Pikemen except maybe when you're up against the Spanish UU.

 

[Slobadog]

What is also good about the BE is that it allows you to exploit AI Tactical Stupidity. The AI knows how to make balanced stacks. But is very one dimensional with regards to strategy. Unless your UU is overpowered like the Praetorian there is a decent chance that the AI will have counter for it. The BE circumvents its counter. The only way the AI can beat it is to stop putting mounted units in its stacks or to deploy them elsewhere. This is something the AI does not know how to do.

 

[ShunNakamura]

The problem with the Ballista Elephant is this:
Probably around 80% of the important battles take place around cities... oppsie guess what it has nothing when you are talking about the important battles. Its scope is VERY limited. Now if it still drew those high powered mounted units out first it would be really handy.
1st most mounted units don't get defensive bonuses so you have just about a guaranteed win with the elephant.
2nd this means you can reduce the number of opponents so that your siege can more easily cause critical damage to all the defenders.
3rd if you wanted this would make it easy to drop it down to 6 str and 75-100% bonus vs mounted.

 

[Dan Quale]

I have found them to be a an above par unit given ivory. Those massive stacks of knights/ha camped outside of your cities go to waste, You can completely devastate an opposing stack with just ballista elephants. Until millitary tradition, you have nothing to fear on the field of battle even if you only have axemen to back them up, and great for farming promotions. Even if you dont have ivory it is often very easy to trade for, since it seems to grow in clusters.

And coming at a very similar time, what wins a praetorian (usually a shock or cr as thats what they all are, or a combat 2/3 elephant, if your a roman running would be the appropriate choice. In multiplayer very little combat occurs in cities as opposed to the open field. So overall this unit is great, and I really dont see why it is looked down upon so heavily, when it has no real counter, until far past its prime, and even then it demolishes mounted units, and if a veteran it demolishes all units until the age of rifles.

 

[Elandal]

I start with the idea that I don't have UU nor UB. Then I'll be happy with whatever extra benefits I get.

Some UU's are considered strong (eg. Vulture) which, while true in itself, doesn't work for me. I rarely go for axe rush, so I rather like Dog Warrior as it's resourceless and works well for exploring / power graph / anti-barb action.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I agree that the BE is a rather weak unit, simply because even amongst multiplayer battles, most fights involve attacking or defending a city. Mounted units do not get city raider promotions, and longbowmen are generally better at defending cities anyway, if you are talking about attacking out of a city to take out knights. I think it needs a collateral damage boast, because highly specialized units are usually produced in small quantities, and so they need to quickly and immediately have a large effect against large numbers of whatever strategy/unit they are trying to counter.

 

[Hawe Hawe]

The War Elefant in general is a strong unit. A UU based on a strong unit can't be sooooo crappy.
I played the Khmer and the Ballista Elephant once. I conquered 1 and a half civ with them, but mostly it was elefants against Axes, Catapults, Swords, longbows or Archers. So i must admit, the special effect came into play only 4 or 5 times. Not really decisive, but in theory it is a very strong special ability. As long as your enemy always brings horses to the battle you have guaranteed victories.
A small tip: You shoudn't choose Boreal or Ice Age maps with the Khmer, doesn't look good either.

 

[Killroyan]

The only problem I would have with them is that in about 75% of my games I will not have ivory. That would makes this unit non available 75% of the time (I don't have BtS so they might have changed that).

 

[Diamondeye]

The War Elefant in general is a strong unit. A UU based on a strong unit can't be sooooo crappy.
I played the Khmer and the Ballista Elephant once. I conquered 1 and a half civ with them, but mostly it was elefants against Axes, Catapults, Swords, longbows or Archers. So i must admit, the special effect came into play only 4 or 5 times. Not really decisive, but in theory it is a very strong special ability. As long as your enemy always brings horses to the battle you have guaranteed victories.
A small tip: You shoudn't choose Boreal or Ice Age maps with the Khmer, doesn't look good either.

A small tip: You shouldn't play Boreal or Ice Age maps.
Ever.

The only problem I would have with them is that in about 75% of my games I will not have ivory. That would makes this unit non available 75% of the time (I don't have BtS so they might have changed that).

I think the number is more like 25-50% for me, and you can easily buy it off a friend, at max 10 gpt.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

A small tip: You shouldn't play Boreal or Ice Age maps.
Ever.

Just out of curiosity: why? I mean I prefer fractal myself, it always gives a very unique landmass spread that actually looks like it could happen in nature, as opposed to the standard 2-3 ovals of continents, but I am curious why Boreal or Ice Age maps are bad.

 

[alcaras]

Wow, great post bovinespy, specifically:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5982455&postcount=18

 

[KMadCandy]

Just out of curiosity: why? I mean I prefer fractal myself, it always gives a very unique landmass spread that actually looks like it could happen in nature, as opposed to the standard 2-3 ovals of continents, but I am curious why Boreal or Ice Age maps are bad.

well i have no idea why Diamondeye said that. but i can tell you that the Boreal map script is bugged. something in the coding went screwy, and any cities that are north of the 90 degree mark (so in the northern 1/7th of the map), cannot build any buildings. at all.

details from somebody who understands code are here, since all i know is what i read about code. i'm scared to actually read code itself.

this is on the Patch change list:
"Fixed Boreal Map Script so that buildings are buildable at the very top of that map"
so yay!

 

[Guardian_PL]

@Bhruic
If I recall Numidian Mercenaries in BTS have str 6, and with +50%vsMelee and 20% withdrawal are real kicker, only problem is to get enough gold to tech Horseback Riding and Archery AND other worker/early wonder techs.
What makes it highly situational like every UU. So what's the deal? Ballista Elephant is similar in its crappines to Gallic warrior. *** happens.

 

[TheArchduke]

Hmm, the Balista Elephants are a great help defensive and offensive wise against a mounted opponent. (Chariots/HorseArchers/Knights)

You can single them out from a stack of Spearman. I wouldn´t say they are great, but I found them ok.