Resource Limit Notice

[insecttoid3]

The Goods idea is interesting.

Do we need more Resources on the map? Right now they barely fit.

Just had an idea regarding fit while trying to sleep(and thus i may come back later and it wont make sense to me). Have all the farm using resources(rice, wheat, corn, oats, barley, flax, opium, papyrus) not be placed on the map at all, or if they are, very rarely. Instead, getting these resources would only happen from discovering them with farms. This would mimic domestication of grains, provide more of a reason for people to build farms instead of spamming cottages, and reduce the crowding of initial resource placement.

 

[os79]

Afforess:

I have better idea for Depletion. What we have now is unrealistic at best, and annoying at worst. See, the problem is that the resources deplete whether or not I use that resource. That is not what is supposed to happen. See, if you can make it so tha the resources deplete from that tile but still have limited "ticks" of that resources in city, that can be used to build units, trade, or feed, or whatever. That would be a lot better.

Reason I am griping about this is:
In my last game, I mined iron resource but had other priorities for a temporary while and didn't had a chace to build light swordsmen/axemen. Luckily I captured copper so I lucked olut there. But I was left without iron. That was annoying but more importantly UNREALISTIC!

So I would request that you revisist the code and see if you can try to add more feature to this modmod, like making a tick bar of resources that are used in game for units or whatever. It can be invisible for all I care but there should be iron stockpiled somewhere after I mined it all out, yes?

Now if that is not feasible to code or too difficult, then I propose that you uncheck it as a default install because it doesn't meet your prerequisites in order to be included in Recommended listing, even for Single Player. Specifically, whether or not that modmod is a historically accurate.

 

[Afforess]

Afforess:

I have better idea for Depletion. What we have now is unrealistic at best, and annoying at worst. See, the problem is that the resources deplete whether or not I use that resource.

That's not true. The resource will only deplete if the city is working the tile. If you never work the tile, it will never deplete.

Making depletion systematic rather than random is nearly as bad as the way it is now, random. How am I going to determine how long the resource should last? Randomly, right? Well, it's just a lot more overhead work for nearly identical results.

Also, it's not like Miners or Mining Companies know beforehand how much ore they had left. They do today, due to enhanced technology, but 100 years ago, and later, the amount of remaining ore was purely guessitimate.

 

[os79]

That's not true. The resource will only deplete if the city is working the tile. If you never work the tile, it will never deplete.

Making depletion systematic rather than random is nearly as bad as the way it is now, random. How am I going to determine how long the resource should last? Randomly, right? Well, it's just a lot more overhead work for nearly identical results.

Also, it's not like Miners or Mining Companies know beforehand how much ore they had left. They do today, due to enhanced technology, but 100 years ago, and later, the amount of remaining ore was purely guessitimate.

The problem is that my city governor work the mining tile that have Iron, perhaps because of hammers. The governor had no way to know that I needed that tile NOT to be worked until such the time I want to use it for my units. Can you code the governor not to work resource-laden tiles unless I want to build certain units, or whatever?

 

[Afforess]

The problem is that my city governor work the mining tile that have Iron, perhaps because of hammers. The governor had no way to know that I needed that tile NOT to be worked until such the time I want to use it for my units. Can you code the governor not to work resource-laden tiles unless I want to build certain units, or whatever?

What if the resource could only deplete if it was actively being used? Like if there was a city constructing a unit that required it, or a building, or a building was generating more income because of it... and the more it was being used, the more likely it is to deplete?

 

[os79]

What if the resource could only deplete if it was actively being used? Like if there was a city constructing a unit that required it, or a building, or a building was generating more income because of it... and the more it was being used, the more likely it is to deplete?

I like that much better. That should bring Depletion somewhat closer to reality .

 

[Arakhor]

That seems like a sensible compromise.

 

[Afforess]

Okay 0s79, I left mine depletion alone, that still occurs the same was as before, but Resource Depletion has been completely rewritten. See what you think:

Each turn, for each player, the game calculates how much you are using each particular resource. If you are constructing a project, unit, or building that requires the resource, the *arbitrary* value of that resource increases by the production cost of the item. Also, every city is checked to see if it is earning an income from the resource, or happiness, or health, or defense, or if having the resource speeds up the production of the current building, unit, whatever. Anyway, this value is calculated only once per turn per player and stored. Since it's only calculated once per turn, it should have minimal (approximately none) affect on turn times.

Then, the game uses the Depletion XML value for the resource, scales for gamespeed AND world size AND how many of the resource there are TOTAL in the entire map (so really rare resources are unlikely to deplete) and then divides the by resource value for the player, as calculated above. So if you are using a resource alot, the resulting number will be lower. Then, the game rolls a random number, based on those odds. Remember a higher number means lower odds of it being 0. (It's less likely to roll a 0 if it's checking between 10000-0 then 10-0.)

So it's still random, but using a resource a lot will increase the odds. Oh, and it depletes if you simply have access to it, it doesn't matter if the city is working it or not.

I stuck a logging message on to log each resource and when it deplete. 30% the way through an AI Autoplay game and only two times has a resource deplete. Which makes sense though, the late game should be harder on the resource. I'm not 100 sure I've got the formula completely balanced yet, it may be too high or too low, more test games will reveal that.

 

[os79]

Okay 0s79, I left mine depletion alone, that still occurs the same was as before, but Resource Depletion has been completely rewritten. See what you think:

Each turn, for each player, the game calculates how much you are using each particular resource. If you are constructing a project, unit, or building that requires the resource, the *arbitrary* value of that resource increases by the production cost of the item. Also, every city is checked to see if it is earning an income from the resource, or happiness, or health, or defense, or if having the resource speeds up the production of the current building, unit, whatever. Anyway, this value is calculated only once per turn per player and stored. Since it's only calculated once per turn, it should have minimal (approximately none) affect on turn times.

Then, the game uses the Depletion XML value for the resource, scales for gamespeed AND world size AND how many of the resource there are TOTAL in the entire map (so really rare resources are unlikely to deplete) and then divides the by resource value for the player, as calculated above. So if you are using a resource alot, the resulting number will be lower. Then, the game rolls a random number, based on those odds. Remember a higher number means lower odds of it being 0. (It's less likely to roll a 0 if it's checking between 10000-0 then 10-0.)

So it's still random, but using a resource a lot will increase the odds. Oh, and it depletes if you simply have access to it, it doesn't matter if the city is working it or not.

I stuck a logging message on to log each resource and when it deplete. 30% the way through an AI Autoplay game and only two times has a resource deplete. Which makes sense though, the late game should be harder on the resource. I'm not 100 sure I've got the formula completely balanced yet, it may be too high or too low, more test games will reveal that.

Cool. Glad we are moving forward with this .

Yeah, I will be more than happy to test it out and give feedback when it comes out into play .

 

[Afforess]

You should be able to grab the latest CvGameCoreDLL from the SVN I set up and try it now if you want. It breaks saves though.

 

[os79]

You should be able to grab the latest CvGameCoreDLL from the SVN I set up and try it now if you want. It breaks saves though.

I tried to import the repository to my computer but it demanded username and password that I don't have. Do I need to create one or do I need your permission or whatever?

 

[Afforess]

I tried to import the repository to my computer but it demanded username and password that I don't have. Do I need to create one or do I need your permission or whatever?

Don't use import, use SVN checkout.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have an idea for some "Goods". What if each civilization had their own unique "good"? Like Romans getting "Ancient Cement" or the Chinese getting "Fireworks". I cannot think of them all and am open to what "Goods" you guys think other civilizations should have.

 

[NBAfan]

What would unique goods do exactly?

Japan could have cars.

 

[Afforess]

One thing I'm not sure about is where to display information on goods. There isn't exactly room on the city screen. I could put it in the city hover text, but other than that, I'm not sure where to stuff that information.

While we are still brainstorming, what attributes should goods exactly have; I can duplicate the current attributes for resources, but I feel like they should be somewhat different.

Also, I've heard various support and dissent for the idea of goods per turn and a national stockpile. Should goods be like resources in that access to a good gives all connected cities access as well, or should it be a stockpile system, where you have so many goods that you can use a turn, increased via buildings?

 

[Hydromancerx]

One thing I'm not sure about is where to display information on goods. There isn't exactly room on the city screen. I could put it in the city hover text, but other than that, I'm not sure where to stuff that information.

Could goods show up in the same section as the resources?

While we are still brainstorming, what attributes should goods exactly have; I can duplicate the current attributes for resources, but I feel like they should be somewhat different.

I think both Goods and Resources should be updated a bit. Especially if we are adding possibly more resources to the map.

Also, I've heard various support and dissent for the idea of goods per turn and a national stockpile. Should goods be like resources in that access to a good gives all connected cities access as well, or should it be a stockpile system, where you have so many goods that you can use a turn, increased via buildings?

Hmm. This is a good question. I think the stockpile system would set it apart from resources. Thus making resources and goods distinctly diffrent from each other.

This way we could simulate other factors such as electricity, water and garbage. But just make them "Goods". Such a garbage made by building giving a negative effect and then the landfill and other garbage consuming building could help reduce the "stockpile".

 

[Hydromancerx]

Japan could have cars.

Lots of counties produce cars like Germany or America.

Perhaps Japan should have something uniquely "Japanese" like Bonsai Trees or Anime or Giant Robots

 

[NBAfan]

Lots of counties produce cars like Germany or America.

Perhaps Japan should have something uniquely "Japanese" like Bonsai Trees or Anime or Giant Robots

But Japan makes the best cars.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

One problem we have created with RoM is that the trade system is broken, what with all the spawning of resources. In vanilla Civ the need for resources is four fold; health, happiness, strategic and trade. Your income depended a great deal on what others would pay for your goods. In RoM this has been replaced with trade buildings. Goods may be a way or fixing the problem if we introduce some more unique resources. Current unique resources are hit singles movies and plays. All of which probably should be thought of as goods. I think we need some more. I don't agree with Hydro that they should be completely civ limited. Some ideas I have expressed elsewhere - in the ancient era everyone had the following but some were considered so great that kings would threaten to go to war with theproducer if they did not "trade" some to them. Eg carved icons (east side Caspian Sea), stone bowls and goblets (south of Babylon), fake gems (North west India), glass ingots (middle east). In the classical era there was red an black pottery (and astronomical computers- there is no other modern word to describe them) from Greece, glassware from Rome, pottery and silk from China.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I don't agree with Hydro that they should be completely civ limited.

I was not saying that. I was saying that along with all the other "Goods" that there should be super rare goods that can only be produced by a specific civilization.

Think of it like a "Unique Good" similar to how there are Unique Units and Unique Buildings.