Resource Management Discussion

[Boris Gudenuf]

Before everybody gets all excited about 'massed resources' to supercharge settlements and military, let's all remember that we have been told more than once that Things Will Change from Age to Age. Add to that the fact that we know at the moment Diddley/Squat about Trade Routes, benefits and bonuses from resources in either the Exploration or Modern Ages.

They might be the same as what we've seen described for the Antiquity Age, but frankly, I would not bet the mine or quarry on it just yet. I strongly suspect that any OP effects from stacked Resources have been noted in this and other games and there is some kind of altered Trade/Resource mechanic that addresses it.

For one thing, it would make sense for Trade to be radically different in at least some of its effects in Exploration Age, given how much exploration IRL was driven by the need to open up new routes and supplies.

Before I start planning the OP Musket Rush in Civ VII, I think I'll just wait a bit and see if it's possible before assuming so . . .

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

For one thing, it would make sense for Trade to be radically different in at least some of its effects in Exploration Age, given how much exploration IRL was driven by the need to open up new routes and supplies.

One thing that would have to change, if I understand what's been described so far properly, is the ability to more easily trade for resources that are located inland. If sending a sea trader to a coastal city only lets you trade for a resource produced by that coastal city, that would mean you couldn't access resources available in that city but produced at a nearby inland settlement. I'm not sure that's appropriate even for antiquity, but it certainly wouldn't be appropriate for later ages.

 

[Zaarin]

One thing that would have to change, if I understand what's been described so far properly, is the ability to more easily trade for resources that are located inland. If sending a sea trader to a coastal city only lets you trade for a resource produced by that coastal city, that would mean you couldn't access resources available in that city but produced at a nearby inland settlement. I'm not sure that's appropriate even for antiquity, but it certainly wouldn't be appropriate for later ages.

Kind of. What the Phoenicians (and later Portuguese) did would be to settle a trade post on the coast and trade inland from there. This is how Cadiz (Gader) was settled in Spain, as well as Kition on Cyprus. (Carthage was different--it was a convenient waypoint between the West and the East.)

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Kind of. What the Phoenicians (and later Portuguese) did would be to settle a trade post on the coast and trade inland from there. This is how Cadiz (Gader) was settled in Spain, as well as Kition on Cyprus. (Carthage was different--it was a convenient waypoint between the West and the East.)

You had the same during the exploration age: Portugese factories in India, Hudson Bay trading posts in Canada, etc.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

You had the same during the exploration age: Portugese factories in India, Hudson Bay trading posts in Canada, etc.

This goes 'way back to at least the Bronze Age and probably to the Neolithic: Raw copper goods were traded out of the Zagros Mountains to Uruk, Obsidian clear across the Mediterranean to the Levant, Tin from Cornwall and Afghanistan - and the Cornwall sites were not on the coast, so that for sure was mixed land/sea trade. Cities as far inland as Ninevah and Babylon got goods from across the sea (well, Persian Gulf/Indian Ocean) and up the rivers, Uruk and Mari from the Mediterranean by sea and pack train and river.

Mixed Routes were not unusual at all, if the goods were desired enough.

I would not be surprised, though, if more of a 'heirarchy' of desire was implemented in the Exploration Age. That is, following the historical trend but not precisely, goods completely unavailable elsewhere would be worth much more, but nobody could make much out of importing more Iron from a New World if you already have any source closer. Some goods, like raw Gold/Silver, and later in Modern Age some goods required for manufactured products or virtually all military units, like Rubber, Oil and Palm Oil, would increase in value massively and possibly be worth any amount of effort.

I suspect, in fact that the return on Resources will change dramatically with each Age, both in types of resources available and what you can get out of them. That alone will make the Civ interactions with both other Civs and Minor States change with every Age, which is from all I've seen one of the Goals of the Age system - I doubt that you will be able to successfully play each Age the same way with the same Civ/Leader combination in successive games: at the very least, the Trade/Resource system will be designed to keep the gamer on his toes throughout all three Ages.

 

[Krikkit1]

Oh no, empire-wide resource stacking made resources so horribly OP in Humankind that every other aspect of the yield economy became more or less irrelevant...

Not sure why we even need empire-wide resources other than for non-city effects such as military power. The settlement-based allocations seem like a fine system for all resources affecting yields. In a settlement, the power of stacking is kept in check by three of a kind also requiring three slots. And it's always for one city.

Here is why you need empire level... notice they are
+% Wonder production
+to unit combat
+to buying things

These are all things that
1. cities only do sometimes (sometimes a city is building a wonder sometimes it isn't, sometimes you are buying things sometimes you aren't)
2.or apply to units...

Even military power can work great with settlement allocation of resources: units created in the settlement with the resource get the bonus; units created in other settlements do not. Makes perfect sense and motivates settlement specialization.

. (if it was units the city builds, that means sometimes you are building units sometimes you aren't)

This means you want to juggle
Start building a Wonder in a city, now I have to swap in my 2 Marbles and swap out my Spices and Silk (but then where should I put them... do I want to rearrange some other cities in this cascade)
Repeat the above for when the Wonder is done (the 2 Marbles will just sit unassigned)

Gold would be even Worse
I want to buy... assign all the gold here... buy here
then assign all the Gold there... buy there, etc.

JUGGLING IS BAD (especially when it is no decision automatic)

All the City Resources seem to provide a bonus that applies no matter what the city is doing (+% to culture... but a city doesn't switch culture on or off... it may change as you build a building but it doesn't switch on or off)

That seems to be why they have Empire Resources, and How I expect all Empire Resources will be.
+to Wonder production/buying/unit stats (combat movement, healing, vision)/unit production/building production/city defense

Whereas
+ flat value outputs, +% outputs (ie production, not "Production of Units/buildings/Wonder, etc.) would all be City Resources

 

[Zaarin]

JUGGLING IS BAD

This is why I hate Civ6's governors and use them suboptimally. It's easier for me to leave them sitting in a city where maybe they're not doing the most good than play "musical governors" every ten turns.

 

[sTAPler27]

I was hoping elephants would be a resouece like horses. There's plenty of cvilizations that relied on animals other than horses for beasts of burden or warfare. It would be cool to see civs that lacked resources only found on another continent to evolve in a completely different way. I'm partially glad that you now no longer need exact resources to build some units but at the same time it's going to be goofy if they have people on a horselss continent somehow have units on horseback.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I was hoping elephants would be a resouece like horses. There's plenty of cvilizations that relied on animals other than horses for beasts of burden or warfare. It would be cool to see civs that lacked resources only found on another continent to evolve in a completely different way. I'm partially glad that you now no longer need exact resources to build some units but at the same time it's going to be goofy if they have people on a horselss continent somehow have units on horseback.

As @AriochIV mentioned before, Ivory is an Empire resource and seems to reflect the benefits of elephant beasts of burden for building wonders

 

[Krikkit1]

I was hoping elephants would be a resouece like horses. There's plenty of cvilizations that relied on animals other than horses for beasts of burden or warfare. It would be cool to see civs that lacked resources only found on another continent to evolve in a completely different way. I'm partially glad that you now no longer need exact resources to build some units but at the same time it's going to be goofy if they have people on a horselss continent somehow have units on horseback.

A bit of a sacrifice for the purpose of balance. (and can be rationalized as Good Breeds of Horses or some such)

 

[sTAPler27]

I think there are still ways to disrupt a trade route, but it might be an on-map feature (kill a Merchant unit?) rather than tied to the resource-moving UI.

Since there's a unique trade ship unit i'm assuming that the merchant just initiates the trade and then then a unit moves around to represent the route. This does feel a bit more micromanagy than 6 though so I don't know how that fits their new design.

 

[sTAPler27]

I think it is representing Quality Iron.... and if it stacks, then getting 2 or 3 is worth while.

I'm hoping it just represents iron in general so there would be alternatives to it. Maybe it could provide +2 combat strength while resources like obsidian could provide +1 and have a culture bonus, just to show how different cultures can make do with different materials.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm hoping it just represents iron in general so there would be alternatives to it. Maybe it could provide +2 combat strength while resources like obsidian could provide +1 and have a culture bonus, just to show how different cultures can make do with different materials.

Iron is super common, and groups that didn't use iron didn't do so because they lacked the means to smelt it, not because it wasn't available. (That being said, obsidian actually has a finer cutting edge than iron; it's just heavier and less malleable.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Iron is super common, and groups that didn't use iron didn't do so because they lacked the means to smelt it, not because it wasn't available. (That being said, obsidian actually has a finer cutting edge than iron; it's just heavier and less malleable.)

Obsidian makes an edge naturally that is almost as sharp as modern razor blades. On the other hand, the edge is very fragile against hard objects - Aztec obsidian blades against Spanish steel shattered, whereas against Spanish flesh they produced cuts deeper than steel blades did.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Iron is super common, and groups that didn't use iron didn't do so because they lacked the means to smelt it, not because it wasn't available.

Making it ideal as something any civ can research and get the benefit from. Iron as a resource on the map is a Civ tradition and has some gameplay fun to it, but I'm disappointed it wasn't replaced by a more suitable resource. At least it seems like its been toned down from Civ 6.

 

[Seek]

This goes 'way back to at least the Bronze Age and probably to the Neolithic: Raw copper goods were traded out of the Zagros Mountains to Uruk, Obsidian clear across the Mediterranean to the Levant, Tin from Cornwall and Afghanistan - and the Cornwall sites were not on the coast, so that for sure was mixed land/sea trade. Cities as far inland as Ninevah and Babylon got goods from across the sea (well, Persian Gulf/Indian Ocean) and up the rivers, Uruk and Mari from the Mediterranean by sea and pack train and river.

Mixed Routes were not unusual at all, if the goods were desired enough.

I would not be surprised, though, if more of a 'heirarchy' of desire was implemented in the Exploration Age. That is, following the historical trend but not precisely, goods completely unavailable elsewhere would be worth much more, but nobody could make much out of importing more Iron from a New World if you already have any source closer. Some goods, like raw Gold/Silver, and later in Modern Age some goods required for manufactured products or virtually all military units, like Rubber, Oil and Palm Oil, would increase in value massively and possibly be worth any amount of effort.

I suspect, in fact that the return on Resources will change dramatically with each Age, both in types of resources available and what you can get out of them. That alone will make the Civ interactions with both other Civs and Minor States change with every Age, which is from all I've seen one of the Goals of the Age system - I doubt that you will be able to successfully play each Age the same way with the same Civ/Leader combination in successive games: at the very least, the Trade/Resource system will be designed to keep the gamer on his toes throughout all three Ages.

Interesting ideas here, I hope you are proven right.

Coming off this, perhaps a resource’s type could change between eras - eg, Iron goes from being an Imperial Resource giving +1CS in Antiquity to a Bonus Resource in later ages giving flat production.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

This means you want to juggle
Start building a Wonder in a city, now I have to swap in my 2 Marbles and swap out my Spices and Silk (but then where should I put them... do I want to rearrange some other cities in this cascade)
Repeat the above for when the Wonder is done (the 2 Marbles will just sit unassigned)

Gold would be even Worse
I want to buy... assign all the gold here... buy here
then assign all the Gold there... buy there, etc.

JUGGLING IS BAD (especially when it is no decision automatic)

Figuring out where to best assign resource is something the UI should be able to help you with in some cases. If you can change resources on demand as soon as you start building a wonder it should ask you about assigning the best resources for that wonder.

I would think UI help with decisions like this would be on their radar. It came up in the civ 6 forums about civic assignment, as well as having several popular mods for 6 that filled some of the gaps in UI help.

 

[Krikkit1]

Figuring out where to best assign resource is something the UI should be able to help you with in some cases. If you can change resources on demand as soon as you start building a wonder it should ask you about assigning the best resources for that wonder.

I would think UI help with decisions like this would be on their radar. It came up in the civ 6 forums about civic assignment, as well as having several popular mods for 6 that filled some of the gaps in UI help.

Better than UI help making fiddly decisions is not to need the fiddling anyways..
Empire resources help with things that cities fiddle with
City Resources help with things that cities always do

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Interesting ideas here, I hope you are proven right.

Coming off this, perhaps a resource’s type could change between eras - eg, Iron goes from being an Imperial Resource giving +1CS in Antiquity to a Bonus Resource in later ages giving flat production.

Given that, to feed on your example, Iron and Coal were the driving resources of the Industrial Revolution, I could see Iron from the earlier Age and oal as a brand new Resource being required for Civ-wide production and required for special Industrial/Modern Age structures - like Steel Mills, Shipyards, Heavy Industrial factories or their equivalents.

We know so little about the mechanics and changes coming in the Modern Age that almost anything could lie in wait for us there . . .

 

[sTAPler27]

Iron is super common, and groups that didn't use iron didn't do so because they lacked the means to smelt it, not because it wasn't available. (That being said, obsidian actually has a finer cutting edge than iron; it's just heavier and less malleable.)

Maybe in that case Iron only provides its bonuses if in a city with a forge or something?