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Resurrecting the Aifons - a sea-dwelling civ for FF

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by [to_xp]Gekko, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    being able to build domed cities underwater was the most awesome feature in the Call to Power games and in the Rise of Mankind mod for civ4 imho ;)

    so it came to my mind that FFH is the perfect setting for a sea-dwelling amphibious race that would be truly unique and lots of fun to play.

    it will definitely be a challenge, design-wise , coding-wise and lore-wise. but imho the pure "drool factor" is enough to give it a try ;)

    before I went around adding a whole new race to the FFH universe, I thought it would be better to just use the Aifons instead. I've read some lore about them and they are definitely interesting and deserve to be brought back from the dead :lol:

    I think it's a lot more interesting to have the Aifons as a sea-dwelling civ, but if people desire them to stay extint, a whole new race can just be created out of the blue of course. everything I'm gonna post here would still apply ;)

    Lore:

    I'm not sure about a good backstory to justify bringing them back, I'll leave that to some great story-teller or lore expert like MC ;)

    for the time being, let's just assume that they re-appeared on creation just as misteriously as they disappeared. no one knows where they have been all this time. probably some evil spell got casted upon them and disrupted the link between Danalin and them, making the God unaware of their existance and bringing him into depression and eternal sleep and dreaming. the Aifons were probably trapped into the depths of the sea and couldn't be find by anyone, hence being presumed extint. but the incoming armageddon and the machinations of Mulcarn have brought them enough power to rise again to the surface and meet the new civilizations of the Era of Rebirth.

    gameplay ideas:

    currently the seas and oceans of Erebus are a kinda annoying place. I think that along with the Aifons should come a more varied and interesting "sea-life" . fish resource should spawn all across the oceans , not just near coasts. underwater lairs should spawn sea-monsters. mana nodes should be found in the depths of the sea, ready to unleash their power.

    Aifon cities will be built underwater of course, making them totally unique and setting them apart from all other civs on Erebus ( even the Lanun are land-based, although they'll never admit it :lol: )

    most of their units will obviously be able to be invisible while in the sea ;)

    first code challenge: it would be awesome to have some more types of sea terrain instead than just coast -> ocean . like sea depths, underwater volcanoes... and new sea resources like kelp, coral etc. it would be extra nice if normal civs would "see" all sea as being the same ( i.e. as it is now ) , while Aifons ( and possibly some other suitable units like OO units, but that might be tricky ) could see underwater and discern different types of sea tyles.

    second code challenge: it would be awesome if Aifon cities and improvements ( if we decide to let them built improvements underwater of course ) could be invisible for most units, simulating the fact that they can't be seen since they are deep underwater.

    third code challenge: they automatically have "open borders" with everyone ( there are no borders in the sea. so by default they have open borders. they can however, after researching some magic oriented technology, cancel open borders , simulating some kind of magic that doesn't let strangers wander in seas they have claimed for themselves )

    fourth code challenge: very hard, probably impossible but would be totally awesome. their cultural borders are invisible until they choose to reveal themselves, come to the surface and meet other civs. then they can choose to let those they see as friends see their cultural borders, and now where the Aifons dwell :) ( of course some special units will always be able to see them, like OO units and the like.

    some of them will be able to travel on land, but only for limited spans of time ( raised by having a "priest" casting a waterbased spell that keeps them comfortable on land ) , but they will have major penalties while on land and won't be able to build cities there. the same will be true for all other civs of course. in order for landbased civs to be able to attack an Aifon city, they will have to cast "Waterbreathing" on some suitable troops. but they will be on a heavy disadvantage and unable to capture the city anyway ( razing is the only option. same is true for Aifons on land, they can only raze cities ) . this will make the Aifons a reclusive civ, more than even the Sidar and rightly so. ;)

    they will obviously have a strong synergy with the Octopus Overlords. their hero will be Trenton Majosi, "trained as a master of water magic by Kylorin himself" . their worldspell could be waking Danalin from sleep, giving them some huge boost, and after this has been done, they could create a Ritual ( if Trenton is still around ) to bring him to creation http://fallfromheaven.wikia.com/wiki/Danalin


    their choice of technologies will be somewhat limited, since a lot of the techs available to other civs make no sense underwater :D they will however keep the religious, recon and magic line, and one could even create a Aifon specific branch of techs that make sense underwater, this would be awesome. ;)

    some cool units that they could use include Krakens, giant crabs and leviathans.

    that's it for now, I'll be adding more ideas to this thread as they come. I'm really looking forward to people's feedback and suggestions about this, I think it's an ambitious project but it can definitely be done if the community drops good ideas, and I'm sure it would be awesome and lots of fun if added to the game :)
     
  2. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

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    Meh... i'm against putting them in... (as i'm sure Kael has something fun planned for them in one of the scenarios)
     
  3. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    post updated with "fourth code challenge" :D

    btw, thomas, it's okay that you dislike the Aifons being in the game. but what if instead of being the Aifons they were some other new aquatic civ, would you have a problem with that ? ;)
     
  4. JeffSteel

    JeffSteel Warlord

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    I've thought it would be a neat idea to bring them back, but a few issues arose in my head.

    1. The ocean would suddenly get real crowded if there is a civ colonizing all of it, might get kind of annoying.
    2. Especially if they are invisible, how can anyone possible hope to take them out? They have to either load up a bunch of vulnerable ships with troops and amphibiously assault the cities (at the bottom of the sea), or spam water walking mages to the extreme. Both strategies can easily be countered (sink the ship, everything on it dies, whilst mages are weak in direct combat).
     
  5. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    1 would get solved pretty easily by giving them big maintanance costs for cities in order to keep them from spreading like rabbit, eheh.
    2 would be solved by not needing ships, just a waterbreathing spell that could be made easy to get ( same with the ability to see underwater creatures if needed for balance ). btw, keep in mind that them being hard to exterminate is intended. OTOH, they would have a really hard time waging war on the land so it balances out I guess ;)

    btw, updated first post again with some additional info on new sea terrain types.
     
  6. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    ive always thought it would be kick arse to have an ocean dwelling civ, and the aifons always have fascinated me.

    but a waterbreathing spell *cough*waterwalking*cough* would be nigh impossible for the AI to understand how and when they needed to use it...

    it would be more AI friendly to say that the Aifon build their cities in coral reef/volcanic islands that emerge slightly from the waves, this means that AI would be able to attack them (albeit very badly cause AI sucks at naval warfare).

    i also agree that a lot more unique ocean features like coral reefs (should be more common near the coasts and have TINY chance to spawn in aifon cities fat cross's) and resources like kelp, should appear on the oceans... perhaps even mana so the aifons can harnes it (limit to water mana?)
     
  7. sputnik323

    sputnik323 Magelord

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    I like the idea and have been toying around with it a bit. I just dont know how to implement this into the game. But here is some ideas I had to kinda make this work.

    1 The Aifons have only 1 large city in the bottom of the ocean and are seeking to dominate the lands from which they were banished.
    2 They can't spread cities underneith the ocean and can only build cities with settlers on the land.
    3 Any city NOT next to an ocean tile brings a huge ammount of unhappiness.
    4 If their ocean city is destroyed their civ dies. (not sure how to do this - maybe have to take a special item and use it to cast something to banish them to the ocean again? all thier land cities become barbarian?)
    5 They will need many unique units and buildings that will set them appart from other civs.

    I think this can be done, but it seems like a big project.
     
  8. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

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    Given a big project, how about nomadic "cities" that automatically migrate around the world's coastal areas? Cities are built in coastal tiles but then move 1 tile every X turns, always in the same direction. Use something like the Influence Driven War code to allow seizure of resources (temporarily) within the fat cross. To the deep ocean add not resources (well, maybe a few) but lairs, monsters and magic. Enough magic to eventually seize control of Erebus, perhaps.
     
  9. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    Hey so I got an event where some fishermen were telling tales about an Isle of Aifon. Any idea what this thing does?
     
  10. zup

    zup Emperor

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    Don't resurrect aifons please. Naval combat is not very sophisticated in FfH/FF. Don't make more reasons to build more ships.

    Unless you actually make navies interesting but then we don't need aifons to fill the seas.
     
  11. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I'm sorry to say it, but I'd have to agree. With the Aifons, you'd want to build cities throughout the ocean, and limit their capabilities on the land... However, that would make it nearly impossible to wipe them out, and set them up for a relatively easy cultural/altar victory, and would be next to impossible to teach the AI to play correctly. On the other hand, you could limit it and keep them on the shores, or small islands, but that's what the Lanun are for, and eliminates the flavour. I love unique civs, but I really don't think this would work.
     
  12. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    @deadliver: I asked Kael in the FAQ thread and he says that the Aifon Isle is a unique improvement that's basically an epic lair ( i.e. only spawns very good or very bad results )

    @psychic llamas: you're right that the AI is terrible at waging sea-based war, but hopefully by the end of Ice phase it will get much better as a lot of effort is put into it ;) in case it is still dumb as a rock even then, one could always use your idea ;)
    oh, and I had forgot about mana nodes in the sea. well said, post updated :goodjob:

    @Valkrionn: yeah I thought about that ( easy cultural/altar victory ) , but I'm not really concerned about it, those are easy things to find a solution for. you can just give them a cultural penalty to avoid cheesy cultural victory, or just keep their cities from getting to legendary culture ( after all, they ARE sunken so their culture shoudln't have a lot of effect on land people :D ) , and some kind of penalty for priest production as well to keep it from being too easy ;)
     
  13. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they'd either be impossible to get rid of, or be too much like the Lanun. The only way to wage war on them would be a massive navy, which would be incredibly easy for them to get rid of as all they have to destroy is the ships, not the units in them, or adopting OO. That could be changed by adding new units and mechanisms to the game, but that would be very difficult to teach the AI to use correctly. Since many people play single player, there shouldn't be a civ where the AI would be *completely* helpless to either use or combat.
     
  14. woodelf

    woodelf Bard

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    It would be a challenge for someone to make the AI work. Not a bad challenge IMO since seabases are needed for other mods as well.
     
  15. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    they are definitely not like the Lanun. the Lanun may be good seamen, but they still live on land and need ships to venture into the seas. Aifons OTOH would have no need at all for ships since they can just swim ;)

    and attacking them would have no need for ships either. just cast Waterbreathing and walk into the sea as if it were land. then all the AI needs to know is that it NEEDS to cast that spell in order to attack underwater cities, but that shouldn't be extremely hard I guess.

    them being difficult to exterminate is intended. a solution can always be found if this turns out to be an issue but I think that it SHOULD be pretty hard to get rid of people that live under the sea. OTOH, they are not going to give much headache on the land either, so it all balances out imho :)
     
  16. BugReportage

    BugReportage Warlord

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    I'm sure Vehem could add a "No Aifons" option for those who don't want them in FF, but perhaps adding Aifons is a good idea. If Kael intends to add them this could be like "beta testing" for them for when he does. All the do's and don'ts will be already known and his team can focus on making them fun to play with/play against.

    If it's inevitable that they ARE going to be in game then I'd sooner have the first steps being made now rather than later... :p
     
  17. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    Possibilities for a merman race:

    * Aifon Cities are called Island Fishes. The "Island Fish" is a Str 6 Unit. It is visible and can attack / be attacked. Every time it loses a combat, restore it Strength back to 6 and reduce its Population by 1. If the Aifon lose all their Island Fish they are eliminated.
    * Aifon Capital starts with 3 Pop to begin with.
    * Aifon do not have Settlers. Instead every 75 turns the Island Fish lays a New Egg to create a new Island Fish with Population 1.
    * Aifon cannot capture cities, only raze them.
    * Aifon generate Cultural Borders to 8 squares only. Their culture only affects sea and ocean squares, but automatically overrides all other Cultural Borders.
    * Aifon Units automatically receive the Amphibious and Water Walking Promotions.
    * Aifon get special victory Conditions. Either:
    1. "Rising of the Waves" - Some kind of flooding mechanic to drown the entire world. Maybe a first step would be to melt all the ice caps.
    2. "Blessing of Mammon" - Some kind of economic condition. Requires lot of gold (ergo some capacity for trading)
    * World Spell - Submerge. All Island Fish automatically submerge beneath the sea, heal to max, gain +1 Pop and cannot be attack or be attacked for five turns. Upon their re-emergence, you can choose where in the world the Island Fish emerge.
    * New resouces: Kelp, Coral, Pearls (no longer the preserve of the Lanun), Seahorses.
     
  18. woodelf

    woodelf Bard

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    Seahorse riders for mounted units. :D
     
  19. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    seahorses would be awesome, those are lovely :D
     
  20. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    uhoh quick get rid of the word 'lovely' from your last post, it could be interpreted as breaking hte princess rule! :p

    theyre not lovely, theyre flesh eating seahorses gone slighly mental from having their Aifon friends being removed from existance for so long then comming back alive........ yeh flesh eating...
     

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