Rethinking Crime

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Historically, there were no really effective remedies for diseases before the invention of penicillin anyway. Other than amputating rotting body parts or the occasional quarantine measure. There were lots of stupid remedies though, like bloodletting or sacrificing animals to certain gods.

Not completely true. There were valid and effective cures for many diseases but they did not always work because there was not a germ theory of disease to unite what was known. The washing of wounds and hands with soap and alcohol changed everything.

As I have said before of the 200 medical remedies from a medical scroll from the time of Hatshepsut, 5 have not been translated, but the rest were in use in modern medicine in the West in 1950. The spells, prayers and chants were replaced by minutes and seconds; better ways of getting alcohol reduced the time and improved the effectiveness for some, and plants from the new world replaced a few of the old world ones.

Quarantine is such a big step forward in medicine that I agree with Brackensopre that it should be a new tech in the tech tree. Perhaps we should split Medicine into "Quarantine" and "Germ Theory of Disease". From what I have read enforcing a quarantine for humans or animals has always been a problem.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Faustmouse: if you spam cities before bronze working you run out of that 30 happiness surplus rather soonish. And that is without regards for war weariness.

I imagine this is with city limits on right? Maybe city limits, based on how it is currently designed, is actually filling a good game balance niche right now.

It's like it was working perfectly but then the whole criminal mini-game was introduced. The principle is fine but it added a feature that can only add crime to what was a balanced system

Hopefully the latest revisions have made the system much smoother. If y'all would like me to optionalize out criminal spawns, someone just needs to say so and it's done. But the investigation and arrest system is 100% necessary and a recent reminder of why has been experienced.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Quarantine is such a big step forward in medicine that I agree with Brackensopre that it should be a new tech in the tech tree. Perhaps we should split Medicine into "Quarantine" and "Germ Theory of Disease". From what I have read enforcing a quarantine for humans or animals has always been a problem.

Could be cool... I wanted to have a quarantine improvement at some point.

 

[Faustmouse]

@Faustmouse: if you spam cities before bronze working you run out of that 30 happiness surplus rather soonish. And that is without regards for war weariness.

I don't have city limits on as I thought this option is a hard limit and the was the default. But yeah, that would've balanced it a lot

 

[seavan]

hello Thunderbird.

The crime currently (SVN and v.37) breaks AI very, very much.

I've played 5 games already on Monarch + Increasing Difficulty to Deity, and by Renaissance all AI's are constantly in Revolutions because of Crime rates. The only way to fix the Thief-riddled cities is to break into them, "ctrl+a" abandon them, and fight off criminals in the open.

I am sure this is not how it all supposed to work.

I also find fighting off crime with Sleuths very, very tedious. I've found that only one Sleuth's promotion is used on calculating chances, so picking up criminals can take actual millennia.

 

[Thunderbrd]

On the SVN, I'm finding it's striking the right balance. The AI are also managing crime exceedingly well, to the point my criminals feel almost worthless. Crime is not racing out of control and has a wide operational range.

I strongly feel it has been correctly rebalanced from the v37 initial opening state. Games played where they started on v37 are potentially going to take a long time to feel that rebalancing but new games should see the difference extensively.

As for Revolutions being broken, that's another issue entirely and I cannot say how well Rev is balanced at the moment.

 

[seavan]

okay, I did mention SVN from before v.37 release, so I'll try checking out the latest one, thanks.

Are Sleuths still used only one tops each turn?

I still think that regarding Revolutions when breakout is happening Thiefs should be converted to Rebels military units, effectively. You let crime loose - you get strong rebels.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Are Sleuths still used only one tops each turn?

If I'm getting your question correctly, you're asking if only the best investigator is used for the investigation check every round? Yes, but 10% of the total investigation abilities of all other units with investigation on the tile are now also added to that check. The most effective thing you can do is first eliminate the crime which eliminates a lot of the insidiousness that is helping criminals to hide. THEN worry about investigation.

I still think that regarding Revolutions when breakout is happening Thiefs should be converted to Rebels military units, effectively. You let crime loose - you get strong rebels.

Would require modders who would work with Rev. We don't currently have any Revolutions specialists on the team.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I agree that in games which start with v37, the AI is doing OK against crime.

 

[seavan]

If I'm getting your question correctly, you're asking if only the best investigator is used for the investigation check every round? Yes, but 10% of the total investigation abilities of all other units with investigation on the tile are now also added to that check.

yes, exactly what I am asking.
so if I have 11 investigators on the spot, all with the same abilities, one would be used fully plus 10% * SUM(...), which gives us twice the chance to catch the criminal?

The most effective thing you can do is first eliminate the crime which eliminates a lot of the insidiousness that is

yep was doing exactly that, Build-up crime fighting, then Build-Up Investigations. 15-20 investigators. Crime reduced eally quickly, catching criminals, on the other hand, took quite a while.

Ah, regarding that. I was trying to help AI fight off his crime by signing open borders and sending investigators into his cities - no luck. Is it considered as a feature - to be able to catch criminals in other Civs borders?

 

[Thunderbrd]

so if I have 11 investigators on the spot, all with the same abilities, one would be used fully plus 10% * SUM(...), which gives us twice the chance to catch the criminal?

Yes.

Ah, regarding that. I was trying to help AI fight off his crime by signing open borders and sending investigators into his cities - no luck. Is it considered as a feature - to be able to catch criminals in other Civs borders?

I'm not sure... I'd have to check the code directly to see if it considers only the player's, team's or anyone's investigation levels.

 

[JosEPh_II]

hello Thunderbird.

The crime currently (SVN and v.37) breaks AI very, very much.

I've played 5 games already on Monarch + Increasing Difficulty to Deity, and by Renaissance all AI's are constantly in Revolutions because of Crime rates. The only way to fix the Thief-riddled cities is to break into them, "ctrl+a" abandon them, and fight off criminals in the open.

I am sure this is not how it all supposed to work.

I also find fighting off crime with Sleuths very, very tedious. I've found that only one Sleuth's promotion is used on calculating chances, so picking up criminals can take actual millennia.

I keep telling players that using Revolutions in C2C is a Bad idea. it has Not been properly addressed (and it actually can't for various reasons) for many years now.

You will find the Mod does not Need Revolution to be On to be enjoyable. Right now it's quite the opposite. So Please play a game of C2C with No Revolutions Option Checked [x]. You will find a game that is beyond the outdated Revolution Mod need, imhpo as a Modder on the C2C Team.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I use Revolutions and it is still OK up until the Renaissance.

 

[Harrier]

Just a thought:

'Cock fighting ring', would usually involve some gambling. So it should increase crime (+3 maybe).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Just a thought:

'Cock fighting ring', would usually involve some gambling. So it should increase crime (+3 maybe).

Well it gets a bonus to gold from Legalized Gambling tech. How would it work if it was not illegal to do? Would the crime stay?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Just a thought:

'Cock fighting ring', would usually involve some gambling. So it should increase crime (+3 maybe).

Wouldn't that depend upon the culture of the countries that allow it. I don't think it needs any crime added. Especially in the time frame it comes into play. Just from that aspect alone.

If Crime is getting too easy then I can go put my Crime levels back in. Then we'll see how many players come out of the woodwork to complain like they did before.

I put Hydro's range back in only because T-brd wanted it so. Mine was actually tougher if you don't remember.

@Hydro,
Yeah I actually made the Individual Crimes tougher by what level they came into play. Go figure!

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Wouldn't that depend upon the culture of the countries that allow it. I don't think it needs any crime added. Especially in the time frame it comes into play. Just from that aspect alone.

If Crime is getting too easy then I can go put my Crime levels back in. Then we'll see how many players come out of the woodwork to complain like they did before.

I put Hydro's range back in only because T-brd wanted it so. Mine was actually tougher if you don't remember.

@Hydro,
Yeah I actually made the Individual Crimes tougher by what level they came into play. Go figure!

JosEPh

I didn't ask you to revert. I asked you to spread the crimes out so that 2000 was the operational range. I did not know that was what it was before your adjustments, just that given what we were experiencing, that seemed much more appropriate between the early and late game since the late game gets a lot more extreme with how much crime levels can be pushed in one direction or the other (LE units and Crime units are both more powerful, as are the buildings) so the whole game shouldn't be gauged according to experiences in the first few eras alone.

However, if you feel there are now good causes to adjust the crime emergence thresholds, by all means go for it. The way things were before criminal emergence you had it dialed in quite nicely so now just work around that new factor as you restructure. Again, I wasn't trying to destroy your efforts nor ask you to abandon all the thinking you had behind anything you did. It's just something that requires rethinking now that there is a new factor you hadn't planned on. (And one that, whether you realize it or not, I had given a lot of forewarning and early notice about as it was in development.)

 

[JosEPh_II]

If I can get a game into the Industrial Era and really into the Modern I can see how the Ind. Crimes that show up in these eras are actually affecting crime from the effects of your new stuff. Then I can gauge if they are too lax, too tough, or just right.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

If I can get a game into the Industrial Era and really into the Modern I can see how the Ind. Crimes that show up in these eras are actually affecting crime from the effects of your new stuff. Then I can gauge if they are too lax, too tough, or just right.

JosEPh

Good answer

 

[ForestDog]

Is there a way to modify the crime level from World Builder? My game just broke due to uncontrollable crime after discovering Political Philosophy. I love the mod, been playing nothing else since years, but since I play an average of a few hours per week during lunch breaks re-starting it is really a pain!
Plus, I have cities founded almost at the same time, which received crime-control units and buildings at almost the same time, but with hugely different crime levels: zero in one and above 350 in the other. What does it depend from? Terrains?