Rethinking Crime

[Taxman66]

There might be hidden criminals in some cities. World Builder could confirm that. If there are, the way to fight them is to get 2 crime fighters who specialize in: 1) Finding them and; 2) Arresting them. Check the promotions and don't automatically choose the crime reduction promos.

 

[ForestDog]

Thanks for the suggestion! Actually I see the criminals units thanks to wardogs, and I already have at least 4 crime fighters per city, 2 with specialized in crime fighting and 2 specialized in sleuth. It does not seem to help with the crime levels though...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

When you get a message saying that the criminal is discovered or wanted you need to get one of your crime fighters to make an arrest. If they succeed the criminal is destroyed.

 

[Taxman66]

Click on your crime fighters and look for a handcuff button on the interface. The crime fighter with the arrest (vs. criminal) promos will have the better chance.

 

[Noriad2]

N.B. If a crimefighter is grouped up with one or more other units, the handcuff button does not show up. Ungroup it first to arrest a criminal.

 

[Hydromancerx]

When you get a message saying that the criminal is discovered or wanted you need to get one of your crime fighters to make an arrest. If they succeed the criminal is destroyed.

In my current game I had one find one and then it stepped outside of my city. In which my dog ran out and killed the unit. Is this normal?

 

[Thunderbrd]

In my current game I had one find one and then it stepped outside of my city. In which my dog ran out and killed the unit. Is this normal?

Depends on the unit AI setting the criminal is operating under. If it's a barb criminal, it thinks itself to be a local and is reluctant to leave even when it becomes Wanted. But the international ones sent in from other players (which can happen from 2 different unit AI types) will often prefer to try to get the heck out of dodge because if they can get out of sight then they stop being wanted. Sometimes you can see them trying to skulk off, other times they might be too quick about it or skilled at an invisibility type to be seen outside of the city.

Sometimes, with a particular unitAI, when they are not Wanted yet, assuming they think themselves likely to be unseen, they will dart out to kill a weak unit or raze an improvement, hoping to be able to return to the city without having died for the attempt.

Throw your dog a treat and promote the LE unit that could see through any disguise ability the criminal had. It took them both to see the criminal trying to get out - assuming you're working with Hide and Seek on.

 

[cammcken]

I'm playing a very recent SVN and I don't think Crime is unbalanced or too difficult. (Playing with Flexible difficulty and I've been on Immortal for a while). I do think it steepens the learning curve much more than any other C2C concept.

I think the main issue is how crime indirectly affects everything else.

Unhappiness, Unhealthiness, and 'natural' city maintenance (Dist. from palace and No. of cities) have become almost negligible in C2C. Instead, the property system is the game mechanic that limits expansion. I like the crime system because it fills that role; without it I would just build bigger and bigger. As mentioned earlier, the properties are like another layer over BtS's Happiness and Health mechanic, which itself is like a layer over the food bar and general productivity. This creates an ease-of-access issue: all of the handy enhanced UI inherited from BUG shows information for health, happiness and gold. (As intended, I believe,) The effects of crime doesn't hit the city or the treasury until many turns after the sources of crime is introduced. I can roll-over a Bandit's Hideout, see the +5 and +10 crime, and think "I can handle that" or "that's worth it" because I won't know the full effect that +10 crime will really cause.

Someone commented earlier "might as well just pay a crime tax" and I think he hit the nail on the head. That's what crime really is, as a game mechanic: it limits growth. Nobody mentioned this yet in the thread, but one good solution to crime is to start using the "avoid growth" button. In vanilla BtS, all of these negative effects and necessities of managing a big city were bundled into and assumed as the city maintenance cost. Now that the police force is pulled out of the city onto the map, the cost is pulled out of the city maintenance and into the unit maintenance. But essentially, it is a city maintenance. This causes the same ease-of-access issue: until I've played several games, I don't know how big of a city is too big, or how many LE I need to send with my next settler.

All of this contributes to the learning curve: not only is it high due to all the new content, it's steep because the effects are all indirect. The connection isn't very visible. I very much like the crime system now. However, truth be told, Crime is THE limiting agent, at least in the Ancient Era. Crime determines how big an empire gets. Once you learn how it works it doesn't feel very restrictive, but I think new players may take a while to realize it, treating it as an extra feature on the side.

I don't mind the learning curve, but maybe this isn't what you've all intended.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm playing a very recent SVN and I don't think Crime is unbalanced or too difficult. (Playing with Flexible difficulty and I've been on Immortal for a while). I do think it steepens the learning curve much more than any other C2C concept.

I think the main issue is how crime indirectly affects everything else.

Unhappiness, Unhealthiness, and 'natural' city maintenance (Dist. from palace and No. of cities) have become almost negligible in C2C. Instead, the property system is the game mechanic that limits expansion. I like the crime system because it fills that role; without it I would just build bigger and bigger. As mentioned earlier, the properties are like another layer over BtS's Happiness and Health mechanic, which itself is like a layer over the food bar and general productivity. This creates an ease-of-access issue: all of the handy enhanced UI inherited from BUG shows information for health, happiness and gold. (As intended, I believe,) The effects of crime doesn't hit the city or the treasury until many turns after the sources of crime is introduced. I can roll-over a Bandit's Hideout, see the +5 and +10 crime, and think "I can handle that" or "that's worth it" because I won't know the full effect that +10 crime will really cause.

Someone commented earlier "might as well just pay a crime tax" and I think he hit the nail on the head. That's what crime really is, as a game mechanic: it limits growth. Nobody mentioned this yet in the thread, but one good solution to crime is to start using the "avoid growth" button. In vanilla BtS, all of these negative effects and necessities of managing a big city were bundled into and assumed as the city maintenance cost. Now that the police force is pulled out of the city onto the map, the cost is pulled out of the city maintenance and into the unit maintenance. But essentially, it is a city maintenance. This causes the same ease-of-access issue: until I've played several games, I don't know how big of a city is too big, or how many LE I need to send with my next settler.

All of this contributes to the learning curve: not only is it high due to all the new content, it's steep because the effects are all indirect. The connection isn't very visible. I very much like the crime system now. However, truth be told, Crime is THE limiting agent, at least in the Ancient Era. Crime determines how big an empire gets. Once you learn how it works it doesn't feel very restrictive, but I think new players may take a while to realize it, treating it as an extra feature on the side.

I don't mind the learning curve, but maybe this isn't what you've all intended.

Are you kidding? This is EXACTLY what has been intended! You really hit the nail on the head as far as design intentions are concerned. I THINK I speak for the team when I say that we WANT C2C to have a steeper and longer learning curve, something to challenge the minds of those who have grown tired of the Vanilla Civ simplicity, something that gives a more real world feel of complexity and interactions. It's not easy balancing this many (and more to come) game forces that influence play but as we narrow in on that balance, my hope has always been that what you just said would be largely the result. Mind you, I don't want to see Dist from palace and # of cities and other forms of maintenance become useless, and I'm actually now enjoying the happiness impacts on city limits options (which I'm surprised to find I'm liking so much) but the properties are very much intended to make for yet more things to have to struggle to balance to make it possible to manage growth in a more expert manner.

This is great feedback. Not just because it's generally mod-positive, though it's nice to know things are starting to feel right, but because it was insightful. Thanks!

 

[cammcken]

Crime is THE limiting agent [...] maybe this isn't what you've all intended

This is EXACTLY what has been intended!

Really? You're okay with Crime usurping all the other limiting agents? I really mean it when I say that's what it feels like: size is all about crime. I've never hit the happiness limit so far. Disease means nothing to me. All of those and bonuses from resources are pointless; I've stopped keeping track of them. The AI can't threaten me, militaristicly. (Then again, I did eliminate one neighbor, which everybody advises against) Barbarians and Neanderthals don't stand a chance. The land grab, at least as it was in BtS when it was all about pumping those into settlers and workers, isn't there. Sure, maybe city maintenance takes a hybrid position alongside crime, because they both affect the treasury, but it still feels like the lesser cost. All of the related leader traits (Charismatic, Expansive, Imperialistic) feel a little nerfed, because they don't contribute much to builders anymore. It was Crime that brought down Rome, wasn't it? Not barbarians, not corrupt administrators, not a declining economy, but thieves and burglars.

Personally, I would love to see the Revolutions mod updated and re-balanced. Conceptually, it fits so nicely next to the property system. It would push crime into a back seat (at least one step back) as Stability becomes the prime limiter. Stability is, more or less, a combination of all these possible limiting agents. I know you guys didn't make it, and I know it's difficult. But it's a cool mod.

And, I would like some more information in the UI, to make life easier... Maybe an indicator of the current "equilibrium point" assuming nothing changes?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've never hit the happiness limit so far.

Do you play with the 'No City Limits by Civics' option on? I'm finding on the MP game I'm playing that have this option off (which up until then I have always played with it on so as to turn off these 'limits') It's very limiting, like extremely limiting. I'm at the point where I'm finally won over... it actually makes happiness quite challenging.

Disease means nothing to me.

Just wait... it soon will. (So long as you'll be playing with the Outbreaks and Afflictions option once it gets a little XML development that's coming up very soon.) Between Disease and Crime, (and Education), you'll have a lot to juggle.

All of those and bonuses from resources are pointless; I've stopped keeping track of them.

Well... if you think about it, crime and disease do little outside of inflicting more of these and economic penalties.

The AI can't threaten me, militaristicly.

Enjoy it while it lasts. It's my hope that the end of this version cycle, or perhaps the next version, will get improvements to this sector of the AI to the point that you'll be wanting to drop the difficulty level a few.

The land grab, at least as it was in BtS when it was all about pumping those into settlers and workers, isn't there.

Finally! Of course even in BtS upkeep should have limited your willingness to overgrow too quickly, and I'd like to see that be a little more challenging in C2C still, but at least something does keep one held back a bit.

All of the related leader traits (Charismatic, Expansive, Imperialistic) feel a little nerfed, because they don't contribute much to builders anymore.

A new trait scheme is 90% designed and just waiting some building organization to finish out - and a lot of XML implementation.

not corrupt administrators

Arguably, this is also crime.

Personally, I would love to see the Revolutions mod updated and re-balanced. Conceptually, it fits so nicely next to the property system. It would push crime into a back seat (at least one step back) as Stability becomes the prime limiter. Stability is, more or less, a combination of all these possible limiting agents. I know you guys didn't make it, and I know it's difficult. But it's a cool mod.

Yeah, at some point it will be good to integrate and harmonize more with this but currently no modder on the team is much of a Rev master.

And, I would like some more information in the UI, to make life easier... Maybe an indicator of the current "equilibrium point" assuming nothing changes?

That would be nice but AIAndy's property system design is not very conduscive to figuring out how to pinpoint that number.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Personally, I would love to see the Revolutions mod updated and re-balanced. Conceptually, it fits so nicely next to the property system. It would push crime into a back seat (at least one step back) as Stability becomes the prime limiter. Stability is, more or less, a combination of all these possible limiting agents. I know you guys didn't make it, and I know it's difficult. But it's a cool mod.

100% and unequivocally Disagree! Rev is the Worst Mod ever made! And then foisted up players as the "best". Baloney!!!

It takes strong competent (as well as an AI can be competent) AI Empires who make good opponents and Splinters them into weak easily rolled over mini's that the player can then suck up with ease. It is the AI empire destroyer and is a Bane to good play. And Any player that says otherwise is hiding their head in the sand like an ostrich. Because that is Exactly what it does, destroys the AI so the player can come in and just pick up the loose change with No real effort.

IF Rev would Only affect the Player and Not the AI I would not Hate "dislike" it so much.

The day Rev becomes an integral default part of this Mod (and no longer an Option) is the day I stop playing. IF I had the know how and the authority Rev would be ripped out of C2C immediately. C2C does Not Need Rev in any shape or form, Period.

The Only thing from the Rev mod I would keep is Barb Civ and Barb World. The rest is Trash in my eyes and way of play! I dislike Rev as Much as I "dislike" Cannibalism and Slavery in the Mod.

 

[Taxman66]

I agree with Joe on this issue.

However, since it is impossible (or unlikely), given the lack of moders with Rev exp to directly remove the AI civs... (though one would think it could just be a boolean test(s) 'if AI = true, then don't call routine and return value indicating no change').

I do wonder if instead the AI civs could be granted a huge stability bonus that effectively makes them immune?

 

[Thunderbrd]

The day Rev becomes an integral default part of this Mod (and no longer an Option) is the day I stop playing.

Don't worry about that. Even though I plan some integrations and/or Rev similar mechanics in the future, I'm strongly in the camp that these should never be non-optional. So you have my assurance I'll always back you on this point.

 

[Squidimp]

IF Rev would Only affect the Player and Not the AI I would not Hate "dislike" it so much.

I do wonder if instead the AI civs could be granted a huge stability bonus that effectively makes them immune?

AFAIK this is achievable under the current Rev mod. Unfortunately it cannot currently be changed through an option or the BUG menu.

You need to find the Revolutions.ini in User Settings. And then there is a component for handicapping the human player. You could turn the index modifier to 0.5 and increase the human index modifier to 2.

You can also increase/decrease instability through buildings, so an XML modder could add autobuildings to change instability rather easily (e.g. use the expression system to check whether the owner was human, and, if not, autobuild something that gives the city 100 stability per turn)

 

[MacCoise]

AFAIK this is achievable under the current Rev mod. Unfortunately it cannot currently be changed through an option or the BUG menu.

You need to find the Revolutions.ini in User Settings. And then there is a component for handicapping the human player. You could turn the index modifier to 0.5 and increase the human index modifier to 2.

)

Yes, I do this, seems to work fine.

 

[Thunderbrd]

AFAIK this is achievable under the current Rev mod. Unfortunately it cannot currently be changed through an option or the BUG menu.

You need to find the Revolutions.ini in User Settings. And then there is a component for handicapping the human player. You could turn the index modifier to 0.5 and increase the human index modifier to 2.

You can also increase/decrease instability through buildings, so an XML modder could add autobuildings to change instability rather easily (e.g. use the expression system to check whether the owner was human, and, if not, autobuild something that gives the city 100 stability per turn)

Do you think you could review our Rev structure throughout the mod as a whole and help to calibrate it more towards its originally intended balance? You seem to understand the meanings in these tags better than any of us on the current team do and I feel for those who appreciate this option, it would be helpful to have someone who 'knows what's up' work on that side of things. Would you be willing to help us there?

 

[Noriad2]

@JosEPh_II If an AI city is completely and hopelessly taken over by crime, it is actually a blessing for the AI if the city revolts away. Also as far as I know, the revolt parameters are influenced by difficulty level, and therefore the AI already gets an advantage due to playing on a relatively low difficulty level. Assuming of course that the player plays above Noble.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II If an AI city is completely and hopelessly taken over by crime, it is actually a blessing for the AI if the city revolts away. Also as far as I know, the revolt parameters are influenced by difficulty level, and therefore the AI already gets an advantage due to playing on a relatively low difficulty level. Assuming of course that the player plays above Noble.

I have Never seen an AI City "completely and hopelessly taken over by crime" in Any game I've ever played. Has to be a direct correlation to Options used, and I don't use Rev.

Perhaps you that have seen this should consider what Options you play with? And maybe determine the source? Rev perhaps combined with ???

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have Never seen an AI City "completely and hopelessly taken over by crime" in Any game I've ever played. Has to be a direct correlation to Options used, and I don't use Rev.

They probably used to before some recent AI fixes.