reverend mother mechanics

[God-Emperor]

I think it would be relatively easy to code in python - although I haven't messed with espionage points. It looks like one check either at the beginning or end of each turn that counts the units of that type that are owned by each player other than the BG in each team (espionage points are mostly done via CyTeam), multiplied by the EP per unit, and apply them using CyTeam.changeEspionagePointsAgainstTeam.

There could be info added to the unit via the Help tag that indicates that the unit provides +X per turn to the BG and a message sent to the BG player that their Sayyadinas have given them Y points vs team/player Z. Since they only get 3 of the resources and are unlikely to trade more than 2 that would normally be 2 or fewer messages per turn after the unit can be created.

Another possibility, which could be done instead or in addition to the above, is to give the BG player visibility at the location of all of the URUs. It could be just the one plot, or that plot plus all adjacent plots. This is probably even easier to implement and explain (and understand) and it involves no messages.

The idea is that in the source material the BG have people everywhere. Those people provide some benefit to the other factions because if they didn't nobody would have them there. But they also provide a benefit, primarily in the form of information, to the BG. So to have the game match the source, there ought to be some BG unit that provides a benefit to the non-BG players but also provides some information to the BG player. Two types of information are the simple visibility of plots and the information represented by espionage points. And maybe...

Another possible benefit is that the BG could get production bonuses for their Kwizatz Haderach related projects (or techs) for each player that builds their URU (so 0, 1, or 2 times some number) or per URU they build. This would represent having greater access to a wider variety of people/genetics to study and/or use in the breeding program. This is probably not much harder to implement the actual bonus, but could be harder to explain in a short blurb in the unit help text and it may be desirable to have some additional game text that points out the production, or research, bonus which could be harder to add (it may be doable in the python for the screens, but I'm not certain). As interesting as it is (to me), the difficulty in making it appear in the game text in the various places may make it less usable than my other two suggestions.

All of this has the weigh the benefits of implementation vs. the cost of implementation and upkeep in future versions. I think that having a variety of mechanics that are different from regular BtS is a good thing - it is one of the selling points of that most popular mod FfH: interesting things that are not in the regular game.

Since the easiest from both the standpoint of implementation and explanation/understanding is the plot visibility, that might be the one to use (if one is going to be used).

 

[Ahriman]

I appreciate the fluff concept you're trying to model, its just finding ways that are easy to code, mildly useful, and transparent to the human player where they come from.

Another possibility, which could be done instead or in addition to the above, is to give the BG player visibility at the location of all of the URUs.

I like this better, then it is much more transparent to the player. They can observe what it is giving them the line of sight bonus.
Not sure how easy to code it is.

Issue: what happens if there are multiple Bene Gesserit factions? All of them gain line of sight for all Sayyadinas, anywhere in the world?

Another possible benefit is that the BG could get production bonuses for their Kwizatz Haderach related projects

As you say, not very transparent.

 

[davidlallen]

Another possibility, which could be done instead or in addition to the above, is to give the BG player visibility at the location of all of the URUs. It could be just the one plot, or that plot plus all adjacent plots.

I agree adding EP is easy. Do you know how to give visibility at arbitrary plots in python? What happens during my turn, if the AI player has multiple of my URUs moving around? Do the visibility plots move also?

 

[Ahriman]

Maybe at the start of each Bene Gesserit player's turn, you create a line of sight in the 3x3 tiles around every Sayyadina. At the end of the turn, you destroy them all.

So you can see them during your turn, but not during enemy moves?
Or maybe at the start of your turn, you destroy all old sightlines and immediately create new sightlines at the current position of the units?

So you can see movement in between turns based on where the unit was?

I'm sure you could easily create an EP flow in Python, but this wouldn't be readily apparent to the human BG player where the income was coming from.

 

[davidlallen]

I'm sure you could easily create an EP flow in Python, but this wouldn't be readily apparent to the human BG player where the income was coming from.

Good point. With a little more work, we could create a new subtotal. I don't have the game right here at the moment, but I know that the hover help for city health includes a breakdown from several sources such as buildings, terrain, etc. These are subtotals which help understand the flow. Assuming there is a similar espionage subtotal display, we could add a new subtotal for "Foreign Reverend Mothers".

 

[Ahriman]

Hmm. This might be sufficient. I don't know.

I certainly like the feel that these mechanics are trying to invoke. Very flavorful.

Again the issue: what happens with multiple BG factions in the same game? You probably can't really tie a particular Sayyadina to BG faction A rather than BG faction B; the only way would be a very cumbersome system to see whether A or B was trading Sisterhood Covenant to faction C when C built that particular Sayyinda unit. Which is too complex.

So, does every BG faction in the game get free espionage points for every Sayyadina controlled by every non-BG faction?
But your own Sayyadinas don't?
Do BG_A's Sayyadinas give info to BG_B and vice versa?

 

[God-Emperor]

I agree adding EP is easy. Do you know how to give visibility at arbitrary plots in python? What happens during my turn, if the AI player has multiple of my URUs moving around? Do the visibility plots move also?

It may be a bit more difficult than I thought. First, as far as I know there is no way to set a unit to give visibility for anybody but the owner (sans SDK modifications). So a simple loop over the units for the players that have some (CyPlayer.getUnitClassCount will tell you who has some) revealing the plots at, and possibly around, the locations of the URUs is what I had in mind.

But the CyPlot.setRevealed function is more complicated than I expected (assuming this is the right function). It takes 4 parameters, including two team values: setRevealed(TeamType eTeam, BOOL bNewValue, BOOL bTerrainOnly, TeamType eFromTeam), and I can't say that I know how it works. (I'm setting visibility for one team, what's the second team parameter for?) I also don't know if it is persistent or gets cleared every turn. And I thought it was easier than the espionage thing...

I was thinking it would just show the plots at (or around, if showing the adjacent plots) the current locations during the BG's turn.

 

[God-Emperor]

Hmm. This might be sufficient. I don't know.

I certainly like the feel that these mechanics are trying to invoke. Very flavorful.

Again the issue: what happens with multiple BG factions in the same game? You probably can't really tie a particular Sayyadina to BG faction A rather than BG faction B; the only way would be a very cumbersome system to see whether A or B was trading Sisterhood Covenant to faction C when C built that particular Sayyinda unit. Which is too complex.

So, does every BG faction in the game get free espionage points for every Sayyadina controlled by every non-BG faction?
But your own Sayyadinas don't?
Do BG_A's Sayyadinas give info to BG_B and vice versa?

I hadn't considered multiple BG factions providing the resource.

Perhaps each URU could be tagged via the script data associated with the unit as to which BG faction was trading the resource to the player (and therefore receives the benefit) when the unit was built, and picking one at random if they are somehow trading for one from each (you can't normally trade for a resource you already have unless it is associated with a corporation, so this shouldn't happen much - I can only think of one way at the moment: if the player is one of the 2 BG civs, trades all 3 of their resources away, trades for one of the other BG's, then cancels one of the deals giving them their own version and the other's version). This could be done in the onUnitBuilt callback. Probably. I don't know how to get the list of who's trading what to a given player. Looking at the code for the "active trades" screen should be helpful.

 

[Slvynn]

I have a new idea for BG civ.
The meditation called “prana-bindu trance” is very common thing in books. Its really dominant feature of Bene Gesserits, and its basic training which anyone who is BG posess.
What if we’ll add BG specific action to all guardsman/melee BG units which:
1. Require full movement being not spent (if units have 2 moves it should have 2 of them un-spent)
2. Heals unit 10% to +15%, stacking with ent-turn natural heal rate.
3. Consumes all ubit's movement points, reducing them to 0.
That will add more favor and more connection to lore. Prana-bindu is something we need to implement into the mod.

 

[Ahriman]

I agree that prana-bindu musculature control is an important aspect of Bene Gesserit sister training, but I don't think that this works at the strategic level of the mod. I think it would be very strange for regular soldiers to be regenerating and repairing vehicles faster and replacing troops losses based on the medidation techniques of their leaders. That would detract from immersion.

I think we do not need to include every single Dune concept or piece of vocabulary in the game, only those that really *work* at a strategic level.

To me, prana-bindu control is part of the training program. If we wanted to implement it, I think it would be better for our Sayyadina trainers to give a Prana-bindu control promotion (maybe 2 levels of it) which gives first strikes, rather than giving Drill promotions.

 

[Slvynn]

It is not skill of leaders. And please note - i told Melee and guardsman units only.
Also please note - that almost no BG males in books - but those who learned from BGs (Halleck, Paul, Farad'n) knew prana bindu. Its simple thing for melee and guardsman units.
You disagree on every post of mine, Ahriman, so i'd like to hear denial for this certain idea from david or deliverator.

Also its is not program of training program. Its technique. Known even by BG adepts.

I just browsed books in english and found alot of mentions. I fail to see how its connected to first strikes. I checked alot , made some research before posting

 

[davidlallen]

Don't feel bad, Ahriman disagrees with most of my ideas also. And I disagree with a lot of his. It is a lively debate, where ideas get even better. It is not a personal attack.

I was planning to start a thread to ask, "Which Dune book terms do not yet appear in the game?" Prana-bindu is certainly a good one. In previous releases the Reverend Mother teaches combat and drill promotions, in 1.6.4 it is the Sayyadina unit. But that unit could also teach Medic I, or a slight variant on that which gives a weak March. I agree it should not apply to vehicle units. I could go either way on guardsmen; it does not magically replace bullets and ammunition. But it seems like it has good synergy on melee units.

 

[Ahriman]

You disagree on every post of mine, Ahriman

I disagree with almost every post of everyone. I think my best contribution as a designer is to point out the flaws in any proposal, so that they can be improved.
That's kinda from my economist training too; point out unintended consequences of policy changes.

And as far as your contributions, I think your art changes have been fantastic. As I've said, several times.

I fail to see how its connected to first strikes

The idea is that the muscle control is part of what makes Jessica et al so deadly in melee combat; it basically heightens reflexes, which allows you to dodge enemy attacks (note that giving me a first strike is the same as reducing your first strikes by one) or allows them to get in the first blow in melee.
It doesn't cause regeneration, or allow you to get wounded troops back into the field faster.

I didn't reject your idea of including Prana-bindu in the mod, I suggested incorporating it explicitly into our training mechanic. I think it would be much more flavorful to have Sayyadinas teach Muscle Control or something than to teach Drill promotion.

But that unit could also teach Medic I

I'd suggest against teachnig medic; medic benefits the whole stack. If you wanted something like this, just give medic 1 to the Sayyadina unit, so she provides healing if and only if she's actually in the stack.

or a slight variant on that which gives a weak March

I don't really see how you can weaken march. Either you heal while moving or you don't.

 

[Slvynn]

I disagree with almost every post of everyone. I think my best contribution as a designer is to point out the flaws in any proposal, so that they can be improved.
That's kinda from my economist training too; point out unintended consequences of policy changes.

I starting to know you better here, its a good way, but not in fanaticism. Kael told 75% of propositions should be declined but all weighted. Not 99%

And as far as your contributions, I think your art changes have been fantastic. As I've said, several times.

Thanks, Simple seems denials come much more often than artworks of mine i need to improve speed
joke
Cheers man, when i knowing you just start with deial because its your way, i know you as less open minded, so its not neutral, not equal point of view, which present negative perspective, which is also good, but in mixture with other side, brought to middle

The idea is that the muscle control is part of what makes Jessica et al so deadly in melee combat; it basically heightens reflexes, which allows you to dodge enemy attacks (note that giving me a first strike is the same as reducing your first strikes by one) or allows them to get in the first blow in melee.
It doesn't cause regeneration, or allow you to get wounded troops back into the field faster.

She uses it to manipulate reality, and its main tehcnique why BG remain not aged (+spice obcourse)
Just remeber lessons of her with Farad'n and few other places where Paul/Leto II used it to combat hardships.

I'd suggest against teachnig medic; medic benefits the whole stack. If you wanted something like this, just give medic 1 to the Sayyadina unit, so she provides healing if and only if she's actually in the stack

I don't really see how you can weaken march. Either you heal while moving or you don't.

I agree that training should not use medic/march, but drill and retreat stuff
and prana-bindu should be single (melee?/guardsman) unit ability to heal bit more spending own movement

 

[Ahriman]

Prana-bindu training and the weirding way
The Bene Gesserit develop their physical abilities as well as their mental abilities. A trained Sister has full control over each muscle in her body through training known as prana-bindu. This allows her to bend the last joint in her little toe while remaining otherwise motionless, bend and contort her body in ways that most would consider impossible, or put a remarkable amount of force behind a physical blow. The mental part of prana-bindu, or prana-nervature (prana stands for breath, bindu stands for musculature) is the precise control of the totality of nerves in the human body. In Dune, Reverend Mother Mohiam tests Paul with a nerve induction device that causes the sensation of intense pain. Paul learns that he is not the only one to have tried it, but is perhaps specially resistant; this conversation points to a widespread use of it as a tool among the Bene Gesserit to measure self control, nerve control, and as Mohiam puts it, crisis and observation.

Unarmed attacks are part of the specialized martial art called the weirding way, which incorporates the prana-bindu methods of optimized muscle control, which enable one to deliver powerful blows and to move with extreme precision and speed. The basic principle behind the weirding way is that, as Farad'n Corrino says, "My mind affects my reality." A user of the weirding way has to know that the action he or she "wants" to perform has already been performed. For example, to imagine oneself behind an opponent at the current moment in time; when trained well, this knowledge will place you at the spot desired. As the art's prana bindu incorporation allows even small attacks to do massive damage, weirding way combat is to the death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit#Prana-bindu_training_and_the_weirding_way

The idea of prana-bindu "manipulating my reality" is meant to be somewhat metaphorical; you imagine you are manipulating reality with your mind, which allows your body to do so.

But it isn't telekinesis or anything like that; you aren't literally changing reality with your mind alone. I think its about fine-tuned muscle/nerve control, not healing injuries.

i know you as less open minded, so its not neutral, not equal point of view

I don't think that being critical is the same as being closed-minded.

Think of it this way: I follow the Amtal Rule theory of design.

Amtal (or Amtal Rule) – "Common rule on primitive worlds under which something is tested to determine its limits or defects. Commonly: testing to destruction."[2] "To know a thing well, know its limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will true nature be seen

 

[davidlallen]

I'd suggest against teachnig medic; medic benefits the whole stack. If you wanted something like this, just give medic 1 to the Sayyadina unit, so she provides healing if and only if she's actually in the stack. I don't really see how you can weaken march. Either you heal while moving or you don't.

The promotions can individually control several things, as you can tell from the xml field names:

iEnemyHealChange
iNeutralHealChange
iFriendlyHealChange
iSameTileHealChange
iAdjacentTileHealChange
bAlwaysHeal

So we could define a new Prana-Bindu promotion, taught by the Sayyadina, which improves the healing rate in enemy, neutral, friendly territory. It would not give any same or adjacent healing like medic. For a second level promotion, it could also give the March flag, bAlwaysHeal.

 

[Slvynn]

Prana-bindu helps to regenerate and to recover from shocks in some moments of books

Also i am not Amtal rule one - i take thing and transform it, till it get shape of my desire. I am more Prana-Bindu one. If you have Will and Desire you will be shape thing into proper one. Consider me as son of Ecaz mind-shaper and BG mother.
I not indend to deny things - i transform things even if change result is completely differs from starting point if start test passes, and my start test - is intuition's "accept" or "denial".

 

[Ahriman]

The promotions can individually control several things, as you can tell from the xml field names:

Ok. These seem to me like weakened versions of medic, rather than march, but that is pure semantics. Faster healing in own territory/neutral territory (without heal while moving) seems fine from a gameplay perspective, though still strange from a fluff perspective.
But why should prana-bindu be improving healing? It seems like it should be about combat performance.

Prana-bindu helps to regenerate and to recover from shocks in some moments of books

Perhaps you mean something different by regenerate than its normal English interpretation.
Can you give an example, please?

I guess I can see it allowing recovery from *mental* shocks, but only the supreme biochemical control techniques of the BGs (which cannot be taught to ordinary soldiers) could help recovery from physical shocks.

 

[Deliverator]

I don't really like the idea of a prana-bindu promotion. I know it is a term we are not using yet, but I don't think it is a very exciting one either. Having a promotion called Prana-Bindu is like having a promotion called Yoga.

The weirding way is a more appropriate term to use for where the BG train fighters not in the Sisterhood. The weirding way is a style of infighting and makes more sense for a military promotion. I'd rather have Sayyadinas give Weirding Way promotions and rebrand the late game tech I think we have called that. There is evidence in the books that the Weirding Way is taught to troops en masse, but the entire Bene Gesserit training (including Prana-Bindu) is only given to a few aristocratic individuals outside the Sisterhood such as Paul and Farad'n.

Don't feel bad, Ahriman disagrees with most of my ideas also. And I disagree with a lot of his. It is a lively debate, where ideas get even better. It is not a personal attack.

Agreed. You have to learn to not feel too attached to your ideas. Just throw them out there, and see how they float. Some Ahriman will smack down like whack-a-mole, some will go on and be developed and find their way into the mod.

 

[davidlallen]

But why should prana-bindu be improving healing? It seems like it should be about combat performance.

When I think of pranu-bindu I think of the scenes in the book where Paul or others were meditating, trying to move just one muscle. So it doesn't seem like a combat technique. Healing may not match precisely, but we already have a bunch of combat and drill promotions. A variant healing promotion, tagged with a common name from the books, seems like a good addition.

Maybe +10% on heal rates in friendly, enemy and neutral territory? The icon could be similar to a Buddha figure meditating with crossed legs.