RFCC - A modmod for RFC featuring Hellenism, Zoroastrianism, the Phoenicians and more

[blizzrd]

Correct, it's probably a hard-coded change to adjust the tech rates. I'll hunt for it in the code and see if I can achieve the same effect in a less drastic way.

Also, Blizzrd it's interesting that you're shooting for Zoroastrianism as India, I would probably have tried for Hellenism, Christianity and Islam. I haven't tested that Civ that much however, so it might be just as hard.

Well, I got to Zoroastrianism. Barbarians even razed Jerusalem for me, which I think would got some way to preventing the founding of Christianity - but there is a different problem.

I think that with all the tech changes, the order in which Great Prophets bulb techs has changed - a lot. After beelining to Zoroastrianism, I had to research many techs that were the preferred bulbed tech for a Great Prophet including Animal Husbandry, Writing and Code of Laws, all before Christianity.

I would assume that Christianity and Divine Right should be preferred by Great Prophets and had planned to spawn several Great Prophets (using the Sphinx and Priest speciailist enabled by all the Temples that I can now build). But I don't think that it is possible to get either Christianity or probably Islam either with all the changes to the tech tree.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

...is probably impossible without very good luck:
1. You need to pop at least 1 tech, preferably Bronze Working (got it in this game from the hut in SE China!).
2. No plague at all
3. OB with India who spreads Hinduism to you for happiness (in fact I stayed in Hinduism all game even after founding Taoism)
4. Save a great scientist to bulb Education
5. Go for Iron Working/Machinery/Engineering first before Paper (preferably you can trade for this with Engineering)
6. Prechop trees around Luoyang and Beijing to build those Confucian Academies while other cities like Kunming and Guangzhou can whip the Taoist cathedrals.

This UHV basically requires China to be 1 era ahead of everybody else, which is true, but impossible in most games except the very luckiest. Barely got it in time. My suggestion would be to change the cathedrals to be available either with machinery or feudalism (which can be traded from the Euros) and allow Confucian Academies to be built with Paper, otherwise it's impossible for the 600 AD and very, very hard for 3000 BC.


Some magical teleportation from the New World:

 

[Ekolite]

I'll give it a try, the problem is always to see if the AI will get stuck with one less city for a long time and end up underpowered later.I created Syracuse to give the Phoenicians a fight for the Dyes in Sicily, and I wanted that fight to be with the Romans. The Romans getting Milan upon spawn is not realistic either but again, if we don't give it to them they will turtle forever and end up even smaller than they are now. (In reality the Romans did turtle forever around Rome, but then burst out in a way that would be impossibly fast in RFC's timeline). I might make such a change however, in the context of the new Leader Spawn feature described in my post above.

Regarding the Phoenician UHV, I think it portrays their seafaring and exploring nature quite well - they would have wanted to do that had they survived that long. I prefer for the fight with Rome to be a side-effect of the conflict over trading resources, rather than a drive for conquest.

Thanks for your input!

That's true about the AI. Would it be possible for the cities to flip to the civ when it's controlled by an AI, but not flip when the civs controlled by a player? Fair enough about the phoenician UHV, although I still think it should be replaced with something more relevent to the era they existed in.

I like the idea for leader spawns. Potentially in that case you could experiment with some form of leader traits if you wanted? Nothing big that would unbalance the game, but things like for example ''Spiritual: Disciples start with Mobility 1'' could add an extra layer of strategy to the game. If you wanted to be really progressive, you could even allow players to choose a new leader from a choice of 2 or so at various points in time, which would have different traits, although in that case you would probably have to remove LHs (and use flags as in some mods) or at switch to 2D versions if you were going to get enough. That would probably take a ton of work though .

 

[Jusos2108]

I like the idea for leader spawns. Potentially in that case you could experiment with some form of leader traits if you wanted? Nothing big that would unbalance the game, but things like for example ''Spiritual: Disciples start with Mobility 1'' could add an extra layer of strategy to the game. If you wanted to be really progressive, you could even allow players to choose a new leader from a choice of 2 or so at various points in time, which would have different traits, although in that case you would probably have to remove LHs (and use flags as in some mods) or at switch to 2D versions if you were going to get enough. That would probably take a ton of work though .

To Corossol, I really like this idea and will try it out as soon as I have time to do so.

To Ekolite (and Corossol), in case you didn't know, Micbic and 3Miro are implementing changing LHs in to RFCE.

micbic: for the leaderheads, can you add them to the XML yourself. If you can add the leaderheads, it will be much easier for me to just add the code to change the leader at a specific time. Otherwise, changing and adding leaderheads takes time and it will be secondary on my list (after AI for colonies and Jerusalem).

<http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298542&page=135>

 

[Ekolite]

There are some (mostly unfounded) beliefs that the phoenecians discovered the Americas. It would be pretty fun if the last UHV was something like be the fist civ to build a city in the new world, which would suit their colonial theme. It would still be too late for my liking though, unless you gave briremes the ability to travel through ocean tiles, with a chance to sink each turn or something. That could be OP though, getting jucy American towns in the Iron Age... (maybe even before the Natives spawn)

They did however trade tin with people in Cornwall (the southwest tip of the UK), so if they don't already it might be nice to give them that area on their settler map, or at least make it a yellow stability zone for them.

Also I've found a potential exploit as Ethiopia. If you start off as Rome and destroy Greece then Hellenism doesn't usually get founded early, if it still isnt founded when the Ethiopians arrive then they get it in their capital which I think helps them with their UHV (although I can't say I ever play as them so maybe I'm wrong). Of course all it takes is for Christianity to spread there, but even still you could switch to Ethiopia and get a big headstart on the UHV.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

You know, in my Chinese game I am noticing the conspicuous absence of non-Hellenic wonders (makes me think how Persia is going to turn out). All I was able to build was the Wat Preah (since I was Hindu), Sphinx, Great Lighthouse and Great Wall. And Zoroastrianism has even less of an advantage.
At least for the Chinese, I propose adding the Terracotta Army (available after Masonry and Pottery) and either the Dujiangyan Irrigation System (probably the earliest comprehensive landscape engineering in the world) or the Grand Canal. Some of these wonders should require Calendar, and the purpose should be to promote economy (since my Chinese economy is usually in the dumps after founding 8 cities).

 

[Ekolite]

Yeah I really struggled as Persia to get enough wonders. I built the Lighthouse, the Wall, the Gardens of Babylon and the Pyraminds but I just didn't have any others available to build and I didn't conquer any. I suppose Greece probably had some, and I could have probably invaded Greece instead of Egypt, but still it was very difficult.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Yeah I really struggled as Persia to get enough wonders. I built the Lighthouse, the Wall, the Gardens of Babylon and the Pyraminds but I just didn't have any others available to build and I didn't conquer any. I suppose Greece probably had some, and I could have probably invaded Greece instead of Egypt, but still it was very difficult.

You should have the Sphinx too in Egypt?
Actually the solution would presumably be to either wait until Greece builds them (by then it might be too late) and conquer them, or to switch to OR and hope that one of the Phoenician cities have Hellenism, and spread it backwards so you can build the wonders yourself.

 

[Ekolite]

Sur had Hellenism, but you'd be really pressed for time spreading it to your production centres and then getting the wonders built before Greece does. Also you can't always rely on Greece building them. I think Rome sometimes builds a few which is bad news for Persia.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Persia is well, impossible as currently formulated. Didn't get free troops even though Babylon declared war on me (?why). I got the 8% land fine, conquering Phoenicia, Asia Minor, Jerusalem, Greece, Egypt, India and making Babylon my capital, settling north of Persia, Arabia and building Constantinople myself. Very lucky that I popped Currency from a hut, otherwise I would not be able to conquer Greece (most cities were building wealth). The 7 wonders are:
1. Temple of Solomon (i.e. Moai Statues)
2. Pyramids
3. Hanging Gardens
4. Great Lighthouse (conquered in Epidamnos)
5. Sphinx (Egypt)
6. Colosseum (built in Babylon after a Hellenic missionary spread it there)
7. The Great Library (got beaten to it by Athens but duly captured).

Great Wall is impossible due to China gunning for Calendar, and Philosophy/Aesthetics is too expensive to get in time.

Here is the problem: The first great person I got (despite running priests in Dilli and in time I got a GP) was the great scientist from Athens. There's simply no way to overcome the Great Library in time (even if you whip a temple, the odds are 4% to 96%). I thought about giving Athens away but then I would fail the 7 wonders criteria. So I failed the 3rd criteria even though I own all the holy cities except for Taoism and Islam.

The old Moai Statues and Oracle giving GP points are gone, and currently there are no early wonders that give GPs except for Sphinx.
Here is where a change in the 3rd criteria would help, or make a wonder for Zoroastrianism so you don't have to conquer the Great Library.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK Corossol, I don't know what you're trying to prove here , but here's my 2 cents on the 600 AD Chinese start:
1. There's a bug with the Great Wall, even though the swordsmen can't enter from the west, the horse archers crossed the wall easily (maybe it's because there was a worker there):

2. As you can see, I've basically conquered my 8 cities (no thanks to your Hwatcha in Seoul which cost me a swordsman and Chukonu, and that's with a lot of luck capturing that city). But I'm nowhere near Engineering, and even though you've placed a library in Beijing, I can't spare any scientist specialists to generate that GS to bulb Education)
3. Even if you get a GS, you cannot get Education right away (it takes another 10-13 turns after that, I tried using WB to give myself a GS).
4. And inevitably, Buddhism spreads to your other cities without religion (without fail since they're closer to the Buddhist shrine or the computer is trying to frustrate your OR activities)

So it's impossible, probably even for Viceroy difficulty. I suggest at least giving the Chinese engineering but not education (since that would put them 1 era ahead) and making sure the Great Wall works.

 

[Corossol]

Hm, it does seem like I was quite mean to China. I'll fix the UHV by making Cathedrals buildable with Construction, this will also allow the Romans to build some Hellenic Corinthian Temples before the religion dies.

Sucks about the Great Wall though, I had tested that change rather extensively. Would you happen to have a saved game just before that Horse Archer comes through?

In another post I will make a list of the suggestions I've collected from everyone's feedback (much appreciated btw) and that I'll be working on this weekend.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, I don't have quite the save from before, but if you wait 1 turn for this you'll get to where the horse archers are right next to the wall (i.e. the turn before my pic).
Can you please get rid of the Hwatcha in Seoul? I can see a longbow, but for the advantages the Hwatcha has it really has no counter that the Chinese can muster.

 

[Agent327]

In another post I will make a list of the suggestions I've collected from everyone's feedback (much appreciated btw) and that I'll be working on this weekend.

If you do I've got a suggestion for the Dutch UHV (which I made on the Minor Suggestions thread earlier): founding (or conquering!) the first city in Indonesia - instead of the current first Australian city UHV (makes no sense historically and Indonesia is right next to it). It's more of a cosmetic suggestion as I usually get 2 out of 3 UHV for the Dutch (I never ever get 7 Spice, even with trading), but in line with historical correctness.

Also, on the 600 AD start plagues occur as should (I seem to remember someone commenting on no plague with the 3000 BC start?). Otherwise the changes take a little getting used to, but a great modmod all in all.

 

[Jusos2108]

The new water unit city-exit-rule makes it impossible to enter Black Sea if Byzantion is founded 1W from its usual position (see screenshot).

I doubt that that is intended?

Otherwise, great mod and excellent new ideas and improvements! I only had a chance to play one game so far, but I intend to play more and give you more feedback.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Yeah, I found that out about Byzantion too, in fact I founded Chalcedon just to be able to capture the fish. It kinda makes sense (seeing that it may been founded on the side of the Aegean Sea rather than the Black Sea), and Athens should only access the SE side, being that Piraeus is actually south of Athens. However, Corinth (which is on the northern side of the Peloponnesus, should access the NORTH side, rather than the EAST). In any case, ships were dragged across the Isthmus, and Corinth was able to access both the Saronic Gulf and Corinthian Gulf:

The city had two main ports, one in the Corinthian Gulf and one in the Saronic Gulf, serving the trade routes of the western and eastern Mediterranean, respectively. In the Corinthian Gulf lay Lechaion, which connected the city to its western colonies (Greek: apoikoiai) and Magna Graecia, while in the Saronic Gulf the port of Kenchreai served the ships coming from Athens, Ionia, Cyprus and the rest of the Levant. Both ports had docks for the large war fleet of the city-state.

So I would make Corinth more like Syracuse, and I like Corinth for long term games anyway.

 

[blizzrd]

If you do I've got a suggestion for the Dutch UHV (which I made on the Minor Suggestions thread earlier): founding (or conquering!) the first city in Indonesia - instead of the current first Australian city UHV (makes no sense historically and Indonesia is right next to it).

I disagree that the Dutch being the first to Australia makes no sense historically. The first Europeans to land on Australian soil were Dutch. They didn't found any lasting settlements in Australia at this time, but that wasn't from a lack of trying.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just won the Aztecs in 1820 or so. Euros are really chummy amongst themselves, with France having Optics in 1420 (thankfully my workboat met them in Incan territory). Mali vassalized who gave me some gems and elephants. Physics in 1780 or so (wanted great scientists but some misbegotten great priests were born, and a GE who built the Forbidden Palace in Chicago just before the Americans spawned), and America vassalized and together we enslaved the English (and the Russians who got Vancouver from a world conference) with grenadiers and curassiers.

Is there a reason why war elephants can't go on tundra if there's no forest on them?

 

[Corossol]

Is there a reason why war elephants can't go on tundra if there's no forest on them?

Well it's very cold there. I didn't expect tundra forests to be passable though, I don't think the Terrain restrictions were tested as well as the Feature restrictions in the Civ game design.

Regarding Vassals, I always find it weird when some distant Civ I barely have contact with suddenly wants to be my vassal. I'm thinking of adding a requirement that borders must touch.

Earlier you mentionned getting no units when Civs declared war on spawn: this is intentional. Considering how meaningless a AI war declaration can be when they're not prepared for it, I felt it gave the human player an unfair advantage. What do you think?

 

[Jusos2108]

Is it intentional that the phoenician 2nd UHV doesn't trigger if you don't work the dye resources?