RFCEurope 1.1
- Thread starter AbsintheRed
- Start date
2phunkey4u
West-Eastern Divan
Speaking of Byzantium (edit: I mean the AI). I've played a couple games so far and in all of them they easily overcame the Ottomans and survived into the 17th Century stable. They should get a huge stability hit after 1400 the latest and be reduced to their core.
Chep
Emperor
I'm probably not skilled enough, but while SoI seemed easier than the original RFC this one seems to be A LOT harder to me. I liked playing Byzantium in SoI, so I tried doing it again here and failed 3 times so far.
What is the trick? The first plague usually kills all my motivation to continue. My strategy is to build a couple of workers and then walls in all cities followed by spearmen/archers. Fending of the barbs until the appearance of the arabs & the plague is still ok, but then when the plague hits and the arabs take 2-4 of my cities due to this while the barbs either take 1-2 in the west or make them to weak to hold out for the bulgarians...
Also as Cordoba the barbs were a real pain in the ass (I get only 1 default win?).
I think the plague for Byzantium should be moved back (but then it will coincide with the Bulgarians which leads to the same problem over again).
And I'm not such a great fan of barbs as you guys, it seems. Having a couple of default wins gives you 2-3 10exp-units pretty soon, making it really important to know how many of these fights you'll win at <1%chance so you train your troops the best. (also very true for France, so you get your CR3-Advancements on your Axemen)
I was really looking forward to this Mod, all the ideas sounded so great, but now my motivation to continue is severly damped after having tried France, Cordoba and Byzantium.
But then I'm more of a builder than a conqueror, maybe thats it. I loved playing Japan or Germany (won both on "King", Japan even in "Emperor" with no or little difficulty) in "regular RFC" because there I could just develop my cities peacefully, build a couple of wonders and then take over the world. Here...not so much (or I tried the wrong civs)
What is the trick? The first plague usually kills all my motivation to continue. My strategy is to build a couple of workers and then walls in all cities followed by spearmen/archers. Fending of the barbs until the appearance of the arabs & the plague is still ok, but then when the plague hits and the arabs take 2-4 of my cities due to this while the barbs either take 1-2 in the west or make them to weak to hold out for the bulgarians...
Also as Cordoba the barbs were a real pain in the ass (I get only 1 default win?).
I think the plague for Byzantium should be moved back (but then it will coincide with the Bulgarians which leads to the same problem over again).
And I'm not such a great fan of barbs as you guys, it seems. Having a couple of default wins gives you 2-3 10exp-units pretty soon, making it really important to know how many of these fights you'll win at <1%chance so you train your troops the best. (also very true for France, so you get your CR3-Advancements on your Axemen)
I was really looking forward to this Mod, all the ideas sounded so great, but now my motivation to continue is severly damped after having tried France, Cordoba and Byzantium.
But then I'm more of a builder than a conqueror, maybe thats it. I loved playing Japan or Germany (won both on "King", Japan even in "Emperor" with no or little difficulty) in "regular RFC" because there I could just develop my cities peacefully, build a couple of wonders and then take over the world. Here...not so much (or I tried the wrong civs)
@Chep
Actually you tried 2 of the hardest civs in this game (I consider Byzantium the hardest, and France the second hardest - this list exclude Portugal and Netherlands, as for them I think "Luck" is the strongest factor). Cordoba is tricky to start as well, but after some conquests it becomes easy.
I didn't touch 1.1 yet, but about the plagues I can warn you: The Plagues are the most annoying engine this game has. My strategy against plagues is the most frustrating of all: Stagnation - If I have a unit near a plague site, I move all of them (including workers) to a city and wait until the plague ends. If I have units in foreign territory, quickly I recall them because there they will be killed by the plague. Boats ususally can't stand and die a lot by the plague, sometimes it's better to run away with them to a safe place in the sea.
But what it takes, it gives: Your enemy is stupid and it seems the plague likes more the AI. So after a plague (if you saved most of your units) you may strike at anyone, as they will have lots of casualties by the plague.
Some nice civs to try (by UHVs):
Norse - If you do it right, you'll see no plagues. A fun game, not hard but must be careful as you need to cross the continent to complete the UHVs;
Hungary - Barbs in the beggining, Austria in the mid (by this time you can probably destroy it easily, if you've prepared for it) and Ottomans + Mongols + Black Death in the end. Starts nicely but ends drastically;
Venetia - No problems until you want to get that UHV3, except that you need to corrupt the crusades and use this army to protect yourself from your neighbors. In the end you'll have to fry your brain and skills to get an Atlantic Access Resource.
Arabs - This has changed in 1.1, so maybe this is not accurate anymore. A nice start, a nice place to expand, few enemies to compete with you, some barbs in North Africa. The problematic of it is the Selyuqs + 1st Crusade (~1060 - 1100). After the Crusades end, you'll have a counter-free UHV, so enjoy your game;
Bulgaria - The deciding factor is taking Constantinople as your first conquered city. If you do, the rest is easy, if not you may retry. The whole thing is about making religious buildings and Great Theologians to get those 100 FPs. The Ottomans and Mongols in the end are not so hard at all, but you must be prepared.
Cordoba - Hard early game with barbs, but after you take most territory in Iberia it becomes a nice game. Nobody competes with you for Morocco, and taking Spain before the first crusade is the key (so no defensive crusades for them).
Kievan Rus' - Tricky game as your UHV is about gathering food. You need to get Huge, but you wont see a single plague. Tricky barb HAs as well, but they only appear outside your borders. When the mongols come it'll be your last fight, so fight to the death.
The common point between these civs is that all of them (excluding Norse and Kievan) will have (most surely but not always) only 1 plague. After Justinian's plague, the next one is the Black Death, a long time after. The civs whose play are in this mid point are safe from plagues. Late civs have the advantage of fewer or no barbs (exceptions: Muscovy and England), but they will have a lot more plagues along the game. And plagues in the late game can screw you up seriously
Actually you tried 2 of the hardest civs in this game (I consider Byzantium the hardest, and France the second hardest - this list exclude Portugal and Netherlands, as for them I think "Luck" is the strongest factor). Cordoba is tricky to start as well, but after some conquests it becomes easy.
I didn't touch 1.1 yet, but about the plagues I can warn you: The Plagues are the most annoying engine this game has. My strategy against plagues is the most frustrating of all: Stagnation - If I have a unit near a plague site, I move all of them (including workers) to a city and wait until the plague ends. If I have units in foreign territory, quickly I recall them because there they will be killed by the plague. Boats ususally can't stand and die a lot by the plague, sometimes it's better to run away with them to a safe place in the sea.
But what it takes, it gives: Your enemy is stupid and it seems the plague likes more the AI. So after a plague (if you saved most of your units) you may strike at anyone, as they will have lots of casualties by the plague.
Some nice civs to try (by UHVs):
Norse - If you do it right, you'll see no plagues. A fun game, not hard but must be careful as you need to cross the continent to complete the UHVs;
Hungary - Barbs in the beggining, Austria in the mid (by this time you can probably destroy it easily, if you've prepared for it) and Ottomans + Mongols + Black Death in the end. Starts nicely but ends drastically;
Venetia - No problems until you want to get that UHV3, except that you need to corrupt the crusades and use this army to protect yourself from your neighbors. In the end you'll have to fry your brain and skills to get an Atlantic Access Resource.
Arabs - This has changed in 1.1, so maybe this is not accurate anymore. A nice start, a nice place to expand, few enemies to compete with you, some barbs in North Africa. The problematic of it is the Selyuqs + 1st Crusade (~1060 - 1100). After the Crusades end, you'll have a counter-free UHV, so enjoy your game;
Bulgaria - The deciding factor is taking Constantinople as your first conquered city. If you do, the rest is easy, if not you may retry. The whole thing is about making religious buildings and Great Theologians to get those 100 FPs. The Ottomans and Mongols in the end are not so hard at all, but you must be prepared.
Cordoba - Hard early game with barbs, but after you take most territory in Iberia it becomes a nice game. Nobody competes with you for Morocco, and taking Spain before the first crusade is the key (so no defensive crusades for them).
Kievan Rus' - Tricky game as your UHV is about gathering food. You need to get Huge, but you wont see a single plague. Tricky barb HAs as well, but they only appear outside your borders. When the mongols come it'll be your last fight, so fight to the death.
The common point between these civs is that all of them (excluding Norse and Kievan) will have (most surely but not always) only 1 plague. After Justinian's plague, the next one is the Black Death, a long time after. The civs whose play are in this mid point are safe from plagues. Late civs have the advantage of fewer or no barbs (exceptions: Muscovy and England), but they will have a lot more plagues along the game. And plagues in the late game can screw you up seriously
Finally I started RFCE 1.1, and of course I tried the Byzantines.
I have to thank you guys for this awesome early warfare situation of the Byantines. So hard! I've lost some units and improvements already to the barbs but no cities. It's in 628 AD, the plague has just started. Let's see what will happen next.
The strange part of this was about founding a city: I founded Gaza in Egypt, a supposed Solid province until the Arab spawn. But just after this my stability decreased from 22 to 15. Why? Is this province really accounting as a Solid province? Or the stability bonuses/penalties for Byzantium were changed? Because a province labeled solid that take away 7 pts of stability in the beginning of the game is really frustrating.
I hope the plague doesn't kill my Mounted Sargeants (it's a shame we can't make HAs anymore, good ol' times). I think I'll be able to use 3 MS and a Khazar HA to try the flip-killing tactic in Arabia. I hope it works.
EDIT: Now I understand you guys. Really this plague + barb + arab spawn + short time for the bulgarian spawn is too severe. The plague finally ended in 672, stopped spreading in 668, the last city Tyre got it in 664. The cities which got infected: Alexandria, Athenai, Thessalonika, Constantinopolis, Smyrna, Hadrianopolis twice!, Cyrene, Nicaea, Iconium, Caesarea, Tarsus and Tyre. That's most of my land, the exception were Sinope, Antioch, Aleppo, Jerusalem and Gaza (the one I built).
I handled it quite well, but luck instructed the plague to start at europe, and only got in my Sassanid front in the last 2 turns of it, so I could keep all my cities. The arabs died to my 3 MS and Khazar HA and I got Damascus. Now I'll try to make some units in Constantinople, because all my other cities near Bulgaria are 1-pop cities (Hadrianopolis, Thessalonika, Athenai, Smyrna and Nicaea). I have 3 MS there already, let's see what I can do.
The trick against slav barbs was to get my units out of my borders. For some reason they got stucked watching my units for some turns, and when one entered, I used a just built MS to get him. They attacked some times outside of my borders as well, but lost all battles. The Sassanid were already handled, and without the plague I could keep most of my units intact there.
IMO, this plague + barb + arab + bulgaria situation is too severe for this game. Not that Byzantium didn't lose most of it's territory in these wars, but the way it is now it's so frustrating that it makes you want to quit the game.
I have to thank you guys for this awesome early warfare situation of the Byantines. So hard! I've lost some units and improvements already to the barbs but no cities. It's in 628 AD, the plague has just started. Let's see what will happen next.
The strange part of this was about founding a city: I founded Gaza in Egypt, a supposed Solid province until the Arab spawn. But just after this my stability decreased from 22 to 15. Why? Is this province really accounting as a Solid province? Or the stability bonuses/penalties for Byzantium were changed? Because a province labeled solid that take away 7 pts of stability in the beginning of the game is really frustrating.
I hope the plague doesn't kill my Mounted Sargeants (it's a shame we can't make HAs anymore, good ol' times). I think I'll be able to use 3 MS and a Khazar HA to try the flip-killing tactic in Arabia. I hope it works.
EDIT: Now I understand you guys. Really this plague + barb + arab spawn + short time for the bulgarian spawn is too severe. The plague finally ended in 672, stopped spreading in 668, the last city Tyre got it in 664. The cities which got infected: Alexandria, Athenai, Thessalonika, Constantinopolis, Smyrna, Hadrianopolis twice!, Cyrene, Nicaea, Iconium, Caesarea, Tarsus and Tyre. That's most of my land, the exception were Sinope, Antioch, Aleppo, Jerusalem and Gaza (the one I built).
I handled it quite well, but luck instructed the plague to start at europe, and only got in my Sassanid front in the last 2 turns of it, so I could keep all my cities. The arabs died to my 3 MS and Khazar HA and I got Damascus. Now I'll try to make some units in Constantinople, because all my other cities near Bulgaria are 1-pop cities (Hadrianopolis, Thessalonika, Athenai, Smyrna and Nicaea). I have 3 MS there already, let's see what I can do.
The trick against slav barbs was to get my units out of my borders. For some reason they got stucked watching my units for some turns, and when one entered, I used a just built MS to get him. They attacked some times outside of my borders as well, but lost all battles. The Sassanid were already handled, and without the plague I could keep most of my units intact there.
IMO, this plague + barb + arab + bulgaria situation is too severe for this game. Not that Byzantium didn't lose most of it's territory in these wars, but the way it is now it's so frustrating that it makes you want to quit the game.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Actually I'm currently having a very fun and challenging game with Byzantium
Got through all the early slavic barbs, Sassanids, plague, Arabian and Bulgarian spawn without losing any cities, but boy it was close a couple times
(maybe I even lost Sinope once for a couple turns, I'm not even sure anymore)
After this I managed to crush the Seljuks, by the time they came almost all of Anatolia and Egypt was settled and the defences built up pretty well
Having said that, early barbs will be reduced, watch out for the upcoming patch 1.11
But still not sure what's the best way to solve the barbs-plague-spawns triangle
Got through all the early slavic barbs, Sassanids, plague, Arabian and Bulgarian spawn without losing any cities, but boy it was close a couple times
(maybe I even lost Sinope once for a couple turns, I'm not even sure anymore)
After this I managed to crush the Seljuks, by the time they came almost all of Anatolia and Egypt was settled and the defences built up pretty well
Having said that, early barbs will be reduced, watch out for the upcoming patch 1.11
But still not sure what's the best way to solve the barbs-plague-spawns triangle
AbsintheRed
Deity
Byzantium is in the process of balance changes as you see here
France and Cordoba are rather hard currently, I'm thinking about some changes there too
For a game with more builder aspects I would suggest to try Arabia or Kiev, maybe Hungary, Poland and Germany
Btw, I'm also not fond of the free wins against barbs
Kills some of the realistic aspect of the game for me
And what for? A couple balancing difficulties? Encouragment for new players?
Those are not enough reasons IMO, so I'm seriously thinking about removing this "feature" alltogether
AbsintheRed
Deity
I'm not sure what you mean here, but stability calculations was changed for RFCE anyway
I don't really see how those first couple wins affect overall strategy.
Don't get me wrong, obviously it's a huge difference whether 5 or 6 of your starting military units survive the first couple turns
But how is the barb situation different from a situation where you start a war with another player?
You think it's unlucky if you lose a unit against barbs in the first turns, and want to restart the game for a new try (that's what a free win is after all)
Then you also think it's unlucky if you don't capture both Adrianople, Thessaloniki and Constantinople with the Bulgarians against Byzantium in the first couple turns?
And you also try that again and again, until you finally succeed?
Starting situation differs from game to game
Fighting against barbs in the first coupls turns are only part if this, at least the way I see it
And in the end, it's all the matter of balancing, don't you think?
Also, I feel that the free wins in RFC are a huge advantage (or even exploit in a couple cases) for experienced players
ezzlar
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,842
Free wins are valid for the player too. Dunno about AI.
Absinthered: Capturing all those cities as Bulgarians are pure luck. But its still possible to play on as Bulgarians without the need to rely on luck. Barbs are pure luck. 1-2 razed cities as Byzantium early on or capital razed as another civ due to first turns barb attack will cause most players to restart. If a barb spawns within the first turns and razes a crucial city, I cant do anything about it. It was just bad luck that it started there. Compared to Seljuks where loss of cities are dependent on bad strategy.
On the other hand, it is too easy to get insane exp by doing successful suicide attacks since you always win.
Edit: But why not remove free wins and test. Some barbs might need to be nerfed.
Absinthered: Capturing all those cities as Bulgarians are pure luck. But its still possible to play on as Bulgarians without the need to rely on luck. Barbs are pure luck. 1-2 razed cities as Byzantium early on or capital razed as another civ due to first turns barb attack will cause most players to restart. If a barb spawns within the first turns and razes a crucial city, I cant do anything about it. It was just bad luck that it started there. Compared to Seljuks where loss of cities are dependent on bad strategy.
On the other hand, it is too easy to get insane exp by doing successful suicide attacks since you always win.
Edit: But why not remove free wins and test. Some barbs might need to be nerfed.
ezzlar
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,842
Burgundy: UHV 1 and 2 should change place so they are chronological. I managed to mass 15800 culture within the time limit. And that was with little culture priority. Change to 15000?
UHV 3 is too simple. I am almost always the strongest civ. Have twice the score maybe?
UHV 3 is too simple. I am almost always the strongest civ. Have twice the score maybe?
Actually I'm currently having a very fun and challenging game with Byzantium
Got through all the early slavic barbs, Sassanids, plague, Arabian and Bulgarian spawn without losing any cities, but boy it was close a couple times
(maybe I even lost Sinope once for a couple turns, I'm not even sure anymore)
After this I managed to crush the Seljuks, by the time they came almost all of Anatolia and Egypt was settled and the defences built up pretty well
Having said that, early barbs will be reduced, watch out for the upcoming patch 1.11
But still not sure what's the best way to solve the barbs-plague-spawns triangle
Yeah, my game is going well until now (3 turns to bulgarian spawn), but I'm sure it was luck what saved me until now. Sassanids are a lot worse to handle then Slavs. A couple Swordsmen can crush all Axemen, Spearmen and HAs (actually I've seen none in this attempt, only a single skirmisher) from Europe, but the Sassanids can only be handled within your cities. 1,2 or even 3 axemen/spearmen coming from outside your borders cannot be compared to 2 lancers spawning inside your borders, right outside your city, and another 4 outside your borders with neutral roads to reach Sinope, Aleppo and Caesarea in 2 turns.
Lucky points:
- Lost no battles of ~70% odds. If I had lost a single battle, I would have lost a city;
- A Sassanid that could destroy Tyre easily moved back to Aleppo to be crushed;
- 8 Lancers attacked me in Aleppo (no walls) on the same turn and lost all battles (I had 2 archers with no upgrades and 2 spearmen one Combat 2 and the other Combat 1). More 3 attacked me on the next turn, 1 lost 2 won but got hurt, and on the following turn I destroyed them;
- I removed the Archer from Athenai one turn before the plague got there. This archer sacrificed himself to prevent an Axemen to get Athenai from me;
- The Plague started in Alexandria, then got Greece, then Tracia and Constantinopolis, then Smyrna, Nicaea, then Iconium, Cyrene, then Tarsus and finally Caesarea and Tyre, so even with the hard time in Greece, because of the lack of plague in Eastern Anatolia I could survive the Sassanids;
- I won a 20% odds battle against the Arabs with my first MS, then the other 2 and the Khazar had to handle the other archer, the last battle being 80% odds and luckly I got through.
The game is going well, but if luck wasn't on my side I should have lost Greece, Tracia, Sinope, Caesarea, Aleppo, Antioch, Tarsus, the Levant, Egypt and Cyrenaica. Maybe even as far as Iconium.
I have a suggestion for the plague-spawn-barbs triangle: If we could recreate something like what happened in my game. I don't know if the plague can spread not exactly random, but semi-random. If the plague avoid the Levant and Eastern Anatolia, at least for most of the time, it's easier as you'll have your hardest frontier at least secure. And besides that I think the plague should be less severe. If it's intention is to mess all your cities, at least make it swift. The way it is now is terrible: I had 10 full turns of plague (628 - 668), Hadrianopolis got it twice, and most of my cities got it for most of the time (the first city to be free was Hadrianopolis, then it got the plague again. Only 2 turns to end the plague the cities in greece and egypt got safe). Only Sinope, Antioch, Aleppo, Jerusalem (and the city I built, Gaza) didn't get it.
BTW absinthered, is there any reason for what happened with my stability in the case of Gaza? Losing 7 pts of stability in a Solid province in the beginning of the game? I know there are penalties for big empires, but I wasn't losing this much of pts with my 1.0 Byzantine that streched from Mus to Pamplona (I know I had Krak and Militarism, but this is not reason enough)
Nintz
King of the Britons
"Illegal Index (-1) is used in SoundIsDynamicRes () of FAudioManager"
I get this message whenever I found a city.
Anyone know why?
I get this message whenever I found a city.
Anyone know why?
ezzlar
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,842
In my last game as Burgundy I found that Byzantium was incredibly powerful. They had 25+ cities and good stability. They lost Constantiople to the Ottomans but kicked them out again and retook Hadrianapolis!
I have also seen some cities with 10+ settlers.
But this could be due to chance. Have to play more games!
I have also seen some cities with 10+ settlers.
But this could be due to chance. Have to play more games!
2phunkey4u
West-Eastern Divan
I confirm these observations.
DC123456789
Deity
This is far too common. And in the late game, too, where there isn't anywhere left to settle!
merijn_v1
Black Belt
I think that is the reason why so many settlers are in a city. The AI keeps building settlers, but as they can't do anything because there is no space left, he saves them in a city.
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