Rhino - Deity Hatty - Random Personalities

I can somewhat understand Banane, although i'd have settled it so it has the Bananas in the first ring, but South Wedge is hilarious and won't contribute anything at all unless you go to war and crush the AIs culture. If it at least had some forest or some food, you could chop/whip more culture building to hopefully get your 3rd borderpop before Saladin gets his 4th... but now it's getting silly. Gift that city to Stalin, maybe you're lucky and it'll create some hatred between Sal/Stal... at least this should make Sal a land target for Stalin, remember that Sal already has that city in the north.

Somehow missed that the Rice is wet, that makes the city at least decent, although it's still a stretch for your econ and needs IW, which usually means "don't get" for me (unless i have IW already or can trade for it soon ofc ;) ).

Regarding the personalities, i'd guess that Stalin is some kind of Justinian: IMP style expanding, and he obviously loves you for your shared religion (only zealots etc. get +6 from reli). That said, Shaka should be his target, you can't be too sure but usually AIs that have built up so much religious loving for the human don't go to war against him. Have only witnessed that once, and it was because i boxed the AI really badly in that game, which isn't the case here. Just observe the cities north/west to Banana, which most likely will be the target if you're getting unlucky.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, when Shaka still has no metals he's almost certainly the war target, i'm 99,9% sure. The AI takes this into account when considering going to war from what i've expected.

I'm still convinced that a early attack date with Catas and a compact empire would've been better, the land you expanded to (Wedge/Banana) isn't even worth the settler at the moment and will take forever to pay off if it ever will, plus will take incredible amounts of workerturns, create bordertension ... the list goes on. No, really, don't like it. You could've gone to war easily against Sal while the other two hate each other, and his land is nice. Too bad, this is pretty much off the table now.
 
I might just gift S Wedge away to someone else right now. Get some diplo, decrease your upkeep. It's not going to be worthwhile for the next ~100 turns or so, when you consider the total increase in upkeep it gives you. I had to double-take and make sure I wasn't still reading your Monarch peaceful domination game when I saw it.
 
Maybe I'm expecting too much of Creative. With a library, Wedge will get its second pop pretty quickly. Saladin's city popped borders while the settler was building, so it'll be a long time before he gets the next pop. But it is something I'm paying for now that's not good for 100 turns, so you're probably right that it's an over-reach. I'll look at the costs next turnset.

What I really need is to get over my fear of early Deity war. In Immortal, my philosophy was "Only grab what's good now, and conquer whatever land I miss out on when it becomes good." But I can't quite get there in my head for Deity.

@Goldys Those wonders are on the other continent, I think. (If you mean Lighthouse not Library for TGL).
 
Maybe I'm expecting too much of Creative.

Yes, you do. Way too much. What use will there be with a library in that town? It'll still take ages until it can MAYBE grab the cow, and until then it can pretty much do nothing.
 
Ran a test:

With Wedge:

Spoiler :

After gifting Wedge:

Spoiler :

Gifting saves 6 GPT. (It brought in 4, meaning it cost 10 total. The screen listed 5 GPT as the cost, meaning that half the cost was civics plus other cities' maintenance, which sounds about right). For each shot, I set the research rate to finish Currency right around when my gold runs out, and gifting saves 9 turns. (34 vs 25 turns).

Gifting gets Stalin to friendly, which is nice. (It would be great, except that he's already preparing for war).

The cow is at 19% Egyptian, after about 30 turns with just Cre culture. With its current borders, Wedge can work a farm and 3 riverside grass hills for 10 hammers per turn. (Some of those tiles are shared with Banana, but Banana has plenty of other tiles to work). Once Currency comes in, the cost will be down to 4 CPT.

Looking back, I think preparing for war with Saladin last turnset would have been better than claiming the 2 extra cities, assuming I could win the war and claim some good cities. (And thanks for reminding me that I need to stop being afraid of catapult wars on Deity. The same thing happened when I moved up to Immortal, I was afraid of wars until I fought a few and got over it).

Settling and gifting right away would have been good too, to get Stalin to friendly. But at this point, with the workers built and jungles chopped and a library almost done, I think I keep Wedge and set it working some hills.

Thanks for all the input. Savefile is attached.
 

Attachments

Surrounded by Fanatics (Turns 273-292, Years 770-580 BC)

So, I keep S Wedge and get the turnset going.

700 BC: Stalin demands I close borders with Shaka. Usually I keep a better eye on worst enemies, but they weren't enemies at the start of the turnset. It's not all bad though:

Spoiler :

Stalin also gets a -1 with Shaka. And since I have no borders with Shaka, it's not like he'll declare on me. So on the whole, this probably increases the amount of wars going on that don't involve me, which is a good thing.

670 BC, ten turns after Stalin started preparing for war, all is quiet on my Western front:

Spoiler :

Looks like I'm not the target. I still produce military, but also whip a couple of libraries when cities are passing their happiness caps, and work some more scientists.

Also, I beg 210 G off Saladin, giving me enough to finish Currency. That's all his money. What a generous guy. (Figure this is a clue on his AI).

Another clue: His favorite civic is Representation:

Spoiler :

I don't know favorite civics well enough to figure it out, but if you do, feel free to chime in.

620: Saladin completes the Hindu shrine. All the more reason to conquer him.

Spoiler :

600: Stalin declares on Shaka.

Spoiler :


And Chitchen Itza should help make the war a stalemate.

I'm a bit relieved, but I was pretty sure he was going for Shaka already.

He completely seals Shaka off from me, so I can safely declare also:

Spoiler :

I'll join the war in a couple of turns, once I find the two chariots Shaka's had running around Saladin's lands.

590: Stalin takes a city from Shaka.

Spoiler :

Oh my. I'm hoping it was a fluke, some unprotected border city. Stalin conquering half the continent would be scary. (All the more reason to conquer Saladin, it's the only way I could keep up).

580: Currency completes for another 16 CPT.

Next: I pick the Priesthood line, then Code of Laws. It's kind of my default economic tech at this point. But I don't put any turns in, because Construction is probably better. (See below).

Spoiler :


Those turn counts are at 0% research, relying only on scientists.

Summary of my cities:

Spoiler :

When Stalin declared on Shaka, I shifted to more scientists. And Thebes will probably whip a market, since it is my commerce city.

Also, I'm exploring Saladin's lands. Looking for Shaka's other chariot (so I can safely declare), but I also eye Saladin's defenses:

Spoiler :

That's his holy city's stack. I don't have eyes on his capital right now, but it had around the same. His outlying cities have half that, and his ratio with me is only 0.6 (less than twice my troops). I think I could swallow him up with some whipped catapults. And with the shrine and the Pyramids, it's a big payoff.

So, I see 3 options:

1. Peaceful growth. Declare on Shaka, don't send anything, and focus on specialists and infrastructure. Tech Priesthood, Code of Laws and Alphabet and start spying.

2. Steal Shaka's cities. Follow Stalin's stack, try to grab some cities like I did last game with Napoleon. I think this would be dumb, since it would make me a target of Shaka's aggression, instead of letting him and Stalin duke it out. But something to keep in mind if I see 1-2 more cities fall.

3. Conquer Saladin. Declare on Shaka, don't send troops. (If I can get Stalin to Friendly, he should stay out of the war). Research Hunting --> Archery for city defenders, then Construction, and Saladin's his land. No one has Feudalism, so I can roll up all the cities, and not have to worry about him vassaling.

I think 3 is the best. Thoughts? And would you tech Hunting and Archery, or just use swords and axes as city defenders?
 
Not sure how weakly defended your cities are at the moment, but could it be better to go contruction first and start building your catapults right away? If you're then worried about defence you can tech hunting/archery, but if not you can carry on to alpha and trade for hunting/archery. Just my 2 cents.
 
The Caesars cap at +5 from religion if they found one and you would have a gigantic negative from close borders, so it can only be Napodin, Salicles or Saltoria. I'd say that this is Peri. Being at +8 looks like a low close border tension value, which only he has of the remaining 3.

Stalin is probably Zara or Izzy. The close border tension is pretty low, so it should be Zara. Depends on where the + from religion ends.

Both should be friendly towards each other pretty soon. They might already be. If that is not the case, we could still have Napster in the game. It is pretty unlikely, though.

I have no clue about Shaka. Looks like a dumb pushover AI like Wang or Mansa. I don't how exactly the negative from heathen religion increases. If it stays at -3 it is not Mansa.
 
Saladin and Stalin are already at friendly, and if I get +1 with Stalin, he becomes friendly with me, too. (We found that out from the "gifting Wedge" test). Man, there's so much you guys know about the AIs that I've never paid attention to. Thanks for all the info.

By the way, my current stack is about 12 axes + swords, but there's only warriors in the rest of my cities. I'm thinking to research Hunting, skip archery, and put 3 teams of an axe + a spear covering my 5 border cities.

Also: Julius Caesar loves Representation? He overthrew the senate and took the title "dictator for life." What was Firaxis thinking?
 
Also: Julius Caesar loves Representation? He overthrew the senate and took the title "dictator for life." What was Firaxis thinking?

Isn't that pretty much the case with every leader? :D There are leaders where the civic fits the historical character a little bit better (although, from most of the ancient/medieval/renaissance leaders we actually don't know too much and might be mislead by some historians that interpreted something wrong...), but overall ...

Btw, there's pretty much the same problem with the other Caesar, who was the first Emperor of the Roman Empire. My favourite nonsense still is that Monty doesn't have Slavery as fav. civic, although that'd make him a non-issue as an AI, so here we have the proof that someone's @ Firaxis actually thinks from time to time.
 
Slowly Dieing (Turns 292-322, Years 580-280 BC)

I switch tech to Hunting (5 turns), and switch my cities partially back to military:

Spoiler :

Shaka moves his 2 chariots into my vision, and I declare and take them with my swords. Stalin is now at friendly.

Spoiler :

520: Hunting completes. Next: Construction, 30 turns at breakeven.

480: Great Scientist born. I want an academy in Thebes. Is it justified?

Spoiler :

23 CPT. Not great, but good enough. He makes an academy. Also, Thebes will whip a market when it grows to size 8.

460: I haven't been keeping a close eye on resource trades, even though I'm happiness-limited. I finally check Stalin, and solve that problem:

Spoiler :


Look at those unfocused eyes. I guess someone traded him some weed too.

Also, Saladin adopt Vassalage. Which means longbows. I now see the impact of grabbing Banana and Wedge, and regret those cities. (They're just starting to come online, but aren't contributing much yet).

Can I still attack? I check, and all but one of Saladin's cities are on flatland. So I think I can. And what's my other option? Tech Code of Laws, build courthouses, and try to catch up by spying? Without a holy city, that's a much harder path. No, I'd rather win or lose now than drag it out.

Somewhere around here, Stalin makes peace with Shaka, and I do too. No other cities changed hands.

410: Banana gets the cows from Stalin. At least something is breaking my way.

Spoiler :

280: Construction completes. I put everywhere on catapults (after their current build), though I'll probably also need some more swords to handle the longbows.

Spoiler :

Also, Saladin builds the Great Library in the holy city.

Spoiler :


Just more toys for me to take, if I can take them.

And he's 3 turns from Civil Service. Longbows I can handle, Macemen not so much. This may be the end of the attack plan. I could go after Stalin (who's still on archers), and leave Saladin for later, but he doesn't have a shrine or Pyramids, so I think that would just be further over-expansion.

I'm going to play this out a little farther, but I can see the writing on the wall: I over-expanded when I should have built troops and teched Construction, and it's put me in a tech hole I can't easily get out of.
 
He can't make maces until he also gets machinery, so don't sweat TOO much... however, maces or not, you're in 'now or never' mode, so I think it's time to stop working scientists, do two whips per city and gogogo. Holy city + pyramids should easily make up for the lost economy from whipping.
 
He can't make maces until he also gets machinery, so don't sweat TOO much... however, maces or not, you're in 'now or never' mode, so I think it's time to stop working scientists, do two whips per city and gogogo. Holy city + pyramids should easily make up for the lost economy from whipping.

Agreed; if you can pick up Saladin's land, you're not in bad shape. One thing to watch out for is the potential for Saladin peacevassaling to Stalin in the middle of the war.
 
A Dozen Turns, A Dozen Catapults (Turns 322-334, Years 280-160 BC)

Short turnset, preparing my stack to conquer Saladin.

I start by begging 120 G. I know this will take at least 10 turns, so why not?

Spoiler :


Thanks dude. What's that? Oh no, this definitely won't come back to haunt you.

This funds my Archery research, which will free up axes for offense.

I don't beg anything from Stalin, since I might need to beg a peace treaty later to keep Saladin from vassalling.

250: Saladin makes the Mausoleum of Maussollos. Thanks for putting your hammers into that instead of, you know, troops.

Spoiler :

240: Banana comes online. Nothing huge, but good enough to produce a few units. It's making archers by the time we're ready for war.

Spoiler :

160 BC: My stack in Sugar, ready to attack the holy city.

Spoiler :


The result of lots of whipping. There are even a few more cats moving to the front lines.

My ratio with Saladin is up to 1.0, which should be crushing. Heck, I'm 0.8 with Stalin, I could declare on anyone right now. Seeing how easy it is to get up to the AI's power off just 6 cities gives me a lot more confidence for next game. (Banana only just started contributing, and Wedge is just making wealth).

There's no obvious first target, so I just picked one. The holy city is the one I want the most, and I have a nice protected advance.

For defenders, I have an archer in each of the 5 border cities, a spear that can reach each in 1 turn, 2 catapults in the West, and more units ready to whip.

In the city south of Copper, Saladin has 5 cats and 2 axes. They can't take a city, but with a few more melee units, they could be dangerous, so I have Copper ready to whip an axe and a catapult.

Other than that, I'm full steam ahead. Here's my cities:

Spoiler :


Copper is working all its hills. It just has so much food that it also supports 2 scientists. I'm keeping them in reserve for whips when I see how Saladin responds.

Over this turnset, Saladin teched Horseback Riding (notice the spears on defense) and Code of Laws. I'm sure glad he didn't beeline Machinery. But he's just started Metal Casting, so this war has to be quick, either shutting down his research or taking the cities I want and making peace.

Check back tomorrow for the war, same rhino-time, same rhino-channel.
 
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