Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded

[Jaguar]

Maybe Prazeros should treat all terrain as roads.

 

[Aeon221]

Get rid of the Prazero defense and make them cheaper pop-wise... although I do not really see what the point of that would be; by the time nationalism rolls around (or whatever it is cant remember right now haha), its a bit late for building more cities... and expecting them to be productive and useful.

Portugal really needs something to encourage them to settle Africa, but I dont know what it would be!

NEW TOPIC

Didnt somebody say somethin about givin each civ a starting tech called "Being XXX" or something? You could use that to define which governments are available to which civs... that way some countries (like European ones) cannot use theocratic monarchy or republic, slowing down their development. Later they would have access to more advanced government forms (and the lovely new resources that pop up with magnetism and such) that other civs cant have. Democracy, Communism, and Facism should be open to all, but the rest could be distributed amongst the various culture groups

BENEFITS:
-Cruddy start locations of ME Countries could be improved by having access to better governments earlier
-forced variety in governments used (so that there are things besides Republics out there!)
-Better control of how the game develops

BAD THINGS:
-More work for Rhye
-Less choices for the individual about governments

 

[Sh3kel]

The Zeppelin as a flying balloon variant and several other models have been around since the French first flew them in the mid-19th century. They most certainly did not last for just a "couple of turns", as they predate the tank and the airplane, which are clearly in the game.
Just a reminder, the Hindenburg crashed before World War 2, and several blimps were used as spotters during the first world war in the Western front by both sides.

 

[Blasphemous]

2 points of defense in the industrial age is pretty much useless. Take away the defense, make the prazero simply uncapturable (gets destroyed instead of captured), and make it cheaper. That would be marginally useful.
Aeon, it doesn't make sense for the middle-easterners to be the only ones capable of using the early govt's, and it does make sense for the Eruopeans to be way ahead of the rest technologically early on.

I decided to dump my vikings game, there was no prospect of winning and it wasn't very fun just surviving. So I started as the Brits instead.
I think I discovered why the French are so powerful... They have a goody hut right near their start, and their Scout probably nabs it on turn 3 or so. By the time I met them they already had Mysticism (and my first build was the Curragh that contacted them.)
The Maya were destroyed at around 150BC. o_O
The French were so powerful, they conquered Germany by 200AD.
Magellan's voyage still gives just +1 to movement. That's pretty much completely useless by the time it comes in, with the new naval movement scheme.
I entered the Middle ages at around 300AD, first among those I know, quickly followed by other europeans. Isn't that a tad early?
Hoplites are still 2.3.1?! HOPLITES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OFFENSIVE! 3.2.1, NOW!

 

[Rhye]

2 points of defense in the industrial age is pretty much useless. Take away the defense, make the prazero simply uncapturable (gets destroyed instead of captured), and make it cheaper. That would be marginally useful.

Uncapturable means that they have 1+ defense points. Then 2 is the right number, considered that spearmen have attack 2.

I decided to dump my vikings game, there was no prospect of winning and it wasn't very fun just surviving. So I started as the Brits instead.
I think I discovered why the French are so powerful... They have a goody hut right near their start, and their Scout probably nabs it on turn 3 or so. By the time I met them they already had Mysticism (and my first build was the Curragh that contacted them.)
The Maya were destroyed at around 150BC. o_O
The French were so powerful, they conquered Germany by 200AD.
I entered the Middle ages at around 300AD, first among those I know, quickly followed by other europeans. Isn't that a tad early?

Yes this needs a tuning.

Magellan's voyage still gives just +1 to movement. That's pretty much completely useless by the time it comes in, with the new naval movement scheme.

It is not that useless if you consider the coastal movement

Hoplites are still 2.3.1?! HOPLITES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OFFENSIVE! 3.2.1, NOW!

No! Maybe you confuse them with the phalanx.

 

[Blasphemous]

Do you mean that Hoplites in reality were defensive, or that what I saw was a Phalanx? (It was not.) I don't really know, I just read in that thread I linked to a while back (about suggestions for rule changes) that Hoplites were special in having a powerful offensive tactic. If that was wrong, I apologize.

 

[Rhye]

I'm undecided about the rate caps. They make the game more interesting, but they cause the AIs to build up big wads of cash in Despotism.

Not anymore since 0.5
Cap=6 was caused that, but rate=7 doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

[Rhye]

Do you mean that Hoplites in reality were defensive, or that what I saw was a Phalanx? (It was not.) I don't really know, I just read in that thread I linked to a while back (about suggestions for rule changes) that Hoplites were special in having a powerful offensive tactic. If that was wrong, I apologize.

I don't know anything about that thread, anyway the hoplites were well-trained units.
Their biggest victory was vs Persians immortals. So it does make more sense to be defensive.
Instead, the phalanx conquered all of Greece and the Persian empire. And that would be offensive.

 

[Rhye]

Get rid of the Prazero defense and make them cheaper pop-wise... although I do not really see what the point of that would be; by the time nationalism rolls around (or whatever it is cant remember right now haha), its a bit late for building more cities... and expecting them to be productive and useful.

Portugal really needs something to encourage them to settle Africa, but I dont know what it would be!

NEW TOPIC

Didnt somebody say somethin about givin each civ a starting tech called "Being XXX" or something? You could use that to define which governments are available to which civs... that way some countries (like European ones) cannot use theocratic monarchy or republic, slowing down their development. Later they would have access to more advanced government forms (and the lovely new resources that pop up with magnetism and such) that other civs cant have. Democracy, Communism, and Facism should be open to all, but the rest could be distributed amongst the various culture groups

BENEFITS:
-Cruddy start locations of ME Countries could be improved by having access to better governments earlier
-forced variety in governments used (so that there are things besides Republics out there!)
-Better control of how the game develops

BAD THINGS:
-More work for Rhye
-Less choices for the individual about governments

The idea would be good if there were 1 (ONLY ONE) govt not available for each civ. That way fairness would be preserved.

If that happens, I can consider the idea and try to see if it's possible (it would cause problems to the tech tree. I'm not sure I can handle them)

 

[Lachlan]

Yes he has a good idea for governments

Rhye can surely if it's possible both

 

[Jaguar]

The idea would be good if there were 1 (ONLY ONE) govt not available for each civ. That way fairness would be preserved.

If that happens, I can consider the idea and try to see if it's possible (it would cause problems to the tech tree. I'm not sure I can handle them)

I don't think it's possible because you have already given each civ 3 techs to start with, and IIRC they aren't allowed any more.

 

[Asclepius]

I see what you mean.
The fact is that I wanted to shift right the whole 18th century and the WWII and post WWII. And one of the reasons was a better balanced number of techs compared to the number of corresponding turns (industrial period was short and had too many techs, which I needed to make VERY cheap).
A consequence is that I've made more room for some time periods, including WWI and reduced modern one.
I didn't like the standard tree because IMO it gave a lot of space to 50 years (1950-2000) while it compressed other periods. Don't tell me that you were able to distinguish between the belle-epoque warfare and WWII warfare!
I prefer that distinction instead of distinguish '50s planes from '70s planes.
This tree allows us to fight with WWI weapons for an amount of turns that isn't so short as before.

About the armoured car, you know that I wasn't sure of adding it at first. But my effort goes in the direction of filling the upgrade lines. And something that upgrdes to mech inf. is very good.


About the zeppelin: I know their existence was short, but it is the most charismatic German UU. In the game it isn't so short, as it is an early bomber that flies even before fbiplanes are around and that now upgrades to the heavy bomber.
The U-boat is OK by why should we change?

I understand your choices Rhye, this sort of discussion is extremely subjective anyway. I just feel that the speed of technological advancement in the 20th century precludes many weapons used in WWI simply because they were obsolete so damn fast. However, the game doesn't work like real life so there are bound to be biplanes and balloons floating around way after they should have been scrapped in reality. This is why I argue for units which have more longevity and could survive for many game turns witout looking out of place. The pace of development in the 20th Century is another reason why more turns and units should be devoted to the end game.

The Armoured Car upgrading to Mech Inf does make sense in game terms but I have a fundamental problem with the Mech Inf unit. There are too many of them and they are too cheap to produce. I don't have so much of a problem with the Zeppelin if it upgrades to the bomber but I still think they are a wasted unit, a bit like the multiple nukes. As I said before, this is all very subjective and the reason I would prefer a U-Boat is its historical significance and its length of service. Zeppelins dropping a handfull of bombs on London may have been a revolutionary concept but their effects were militarily insignificant and reproducing psychological effects in this game isn't possible.

I think I have made my case quite clear but it's up to you and what you feel is right for the game. I may know my history better but you certainly know what works in this game, so over to you....

 

[Asclepius]

The Zeppelin as a flying balloon variant and several other models have been around since the French first flew them in the mid-19th century. They most certainly did not last for just a "couple of turns", as they predate the tank and the airplane, which are clearly in the game.
Just a reminder, the Hindenburg crashed before World War 2, and several blimps were used as spotters during the first world war in the Western front by both sides.

No need to try and teach me history. As a militarily significant weapon, airships most certainly did only last a couple of game turns. Zeppelins may have taken to the air in 1900 as observation platforms, but they were only used in anger to drop bombs from 1915 and most had been scrapped by 1919. The ones remaining simply being used as observation balloons again. Simply predating something doesn't make it a useful unit to have in a game representing thousands of years of history. Its impact on military decision making should be considered. Zeppelins merely proved that lighter than air concepts were a dead-end road.

 

[Rhye]

The Armoured Car upgrading to Mech Inf does make sense in game terms but I have a fundamental problem with the Mech Inf unit. There are too many of them and they are too cheap to produce.

This needs to be checked with my excel sheet, let me see.

EDIT: yes you are right. Both Mech Inf and modern armor need an increase of their cost

I don't have so much of a problem with the Zeppelin if it upgrades to the bomber but I still think they are a wasted unit, a bit like the multiple nukes.
Zeppelins dropping a handfull of bombs on London may have been a revolutionary concept but their effects were militarily insignificant and reproducing psychological effects in this game isn't possible.

OK they've been short in real life, but in the game they last a little longer, with slightly lower stats than the bomber.
What would U-boat solve? Yes it's accurate and appropriate, but naval UUs have never been that useful. And Germany isn't a seafaring civ, it's the real opposite. For most of its existance, Germany dominated the skies, not the sea.

 

[Rhye]

I don't think it's possible because you have already given each civ 3 techs to start with, and IIRC they aren't allowed any more.

One more is allowed.
But it isn't simple and I don't know if it's worth the effort

 

[Asclepius]

OK they've been short in real life, but in the game they last a little longer, with slightly lower stats than the bomber.
What would U-boat solve? Yes it's accurate and appropriate, but naval UUs have never been that useful. And Germany isn't a seafaring civ, it's the real opposite. For most of its existance, Germany dominated the skies, not the sea.

Whether they are a seafaring Civ or not is not really the point. If the British hadn't had such a huge Navy, the war in the west (both in WWI and WWII) would have been won by Germany simply because of the U-Boat.

I'm sorry but it is not correct to say Germany dominated the skies for anything more than a very short period. Air combat in WWI was insignificant and had no bearing on the course of the war. From 1939 to 1941 (at least in the East) you could say Germany was certainly dominant in the air. But as the western bombing campaigns and Russian production began to pick up, the exact opposite became true. By the end of the war the Luftwaffe had been wiped from the sky. If you consider a naval UU not to be useful then what about the old F15 UU, also not that effective, so I don't understand the argument that air UU's are any better. A U-Boat can sink a boat and start a GA. An F15 could never do that and neither can a Zeppelin. However, if you consider German air dominance in 1940 to be important then the Bf 109 should be the UU of choice not the Zeppelin, not that I would recommend that.

 

[Rhye]

A U-Boat can sink a boat and start a GA. An F15 could never do that and neither can a Zeppelin.

Really can't air units start a golden age?

 

[Aeon221]

They can if they have lethal bombardment of one type or another. Trust me, I played enough with the Americans to be sure.

I will write down the govt stats and names and check with what I remember/can find out to produce this.

However, saying that Europe needs to be ahead in tech early on is THE most incorrect thing I have heard in a while. The middle east and balkans need to be ahead! Writing, ship building, irrigation, religion, iron working, bronze working... wanna guess where all that came from? Not Germany! Not France! Not your under pants! ;p

How about the printing press (moveable type was Gutenburg's addition, not the press itself)? Gunpowder? Wanna take a quick guess about them too?

If you guessed China, you'd be SMACK ON! ;p

Until the Renaissance (with the brief exception of Rome), Europe was a technological backwater of EPIC PROPORTIONS!

So IMHO, crippling their early development is JUST AS IMPORTANT as boosting their later improvement. Ok, off to breakfast.

And the Byzantines have to go ;p

 

[Blasphemous]

Wouldn't shooting down an enemy plane also start a golden age?
By the way, wouldn't it make sense to only have one of the UUs start a golden age? In my Vikings game my golden age was started when I used a longship to sink a british galley, I would rathered have the GA start when I actually got the Berserkir and invaded Britain...

 

[Asclepius]

Really can't air units start a golden age?

Oh, I'm sure they can but it requires unit destruction for that to happen and unless they have lethal bombard it will ony happen with an air interception and I don't know if that's enough to start a GA.