Rise And Rule Revisited (epic mod)

[ynot56]

I had noticed gaps in the ability of stealth attack capable units. I had always assumed feature and not a bug. Often the units unavailable for stealth attack are the most modern.

To me, it makes sense that a commando style unit could avoid strong units to attack less well defended. That is sort of what commando style units do...

 

[Belofon]

Another RARR issue: wrong stats for Native Riflemen. Currently they have attack and def of Line Infantry (other stats are OK).

If a peace deal is tied to any other agreements, then you will need to declare war again (or be declared upon) to break all those deals.

Here is one small problem: peace deal which included RoP and embargo was already denounced, resulting in war (though, as I've reported before, RoP was still active) and right after that it was replaced with another peace deal without any additional agreements. Futhermore, embargo was still active even when civ which offered peace with embargo (Zulu) was already wiped out :

Also, F2 proposes to sign embargo with Barbarians

 

[ynot56]

Back to the galleon for a minute. I get what you say about defensive bombardment. That galleons are really troop ships. But, their offense than would be a boarding action. Might this be a situation where the enslave flag should be set, since, the boarding action could result in capturing the defender.

Just a thought, no psychic investment in the idea.

 

[tjs282]

Futhermore, embargo was still active even when civ which offered peace with embargo (Zulu) was already wiped out

That screenshot does not adequately demonstrate your point, because it does not show who the Iroquois have signed their Embargo with.

Given that you are at war with the Aztecs, I could well imagine that they have also have signed an Embargo against you, which continues to be active even though the Iros' agreement with the Zulus has expired (along with Shaka).

You'd need to look at (/show us) the F4 screen, "Trade details" tab, to see who has Embargos against you.

Also, F2 proposes to sign embargo with Barbarians

This likely represents an error in the RARR script.txt (assuming that it uses its own, rather than the default epic-game file).

The text in the screenshot should probably rather say "Iroquois"(?), but the "wrong" Civ has been linked in that particular paragraph instead. (IIRC, the individual Civs are numbered in some of the script.txt hyperlinks, so maybe the Iros' number got swapped with the Barbarians' — or the Civ-numbering order had been changed in the .biq, but not in the script.txt?)

IIRC, I once found — and fixed — a similar error in the epic-game script.txt in my installation, which I noticed when the Hittites visited me during the interturn, to tell me that they wanted to make a deal with the "generous Hittites" (or something like that). In that case, the link-text had used the "$THEIR_CIV" code, when it should instead have used the "$OUR_CIV" code.

 

[Dublinaut]

It seems there's a bug with combat. I'm playing as the Celts and I've noticed the game freezes when the combat animations change to a death animation for a unit.

 

[Civinator]

Dublinaut, I have tried to answer your post in your parallel post in the CCM2 thread:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ccm2-epic-mod.625812/page-36#post-15959949

 

[ynot56]

Just a balance thing.

For conventional ships the upgrade path is frigate, heavy frigate, WWI destroyer.

For pirate ships, the upgrade path is privateer, pirate frigate, commerce raider, WWI destroyer.

I think the pirate path gets un update in the commerce raider that is not matched in the conventional path. It makes heavy frigates quite weak after commerce raiders become available (which can be a lot with the Jolly Roger small wonder).

It seems to me there should be something like a steam frigate that counters the commerce raider.

 

[Civinator]

Another RARR issue: wrong stats for Native Riflemen. Currently they have attack and def of Line Infantry (other stats are OK).

Belofon, thank you very much for reporting this error and I´m sorry for the delay in answering your post. I only noticed today that the answer to this part of your last post was still open.

 

[Civinator]

Just a balance thing.

For conventional ships the upgrade path is frigate, heavy frigate, WWI destroyer.

For pirate ships, the upgrade path is privateer, pirate frigate, commerce raider, WWI destroyer.

I think the pirate path gets un update in the commerce raider that is not matched in the conventional path. It makes heavy frigates quite weak after commerce raiders become available (which can be a lot with the Jolly Roger small wonder).

It seems to me there should be something like a steam frigate that counters the commerce raider.

ynot56, the steam frigate or its equivalents are coming exactly with the same tech as the commerce raider.



The different upgrade paths for heavy frigates (to WW I destroyers) and pirate frigates (to commerce raiders) result from the problem, that otherwise there would be too less WW I destroyers in the game, as the upgrade path for heavy frigates to ironclads would lead to the more powerful predreadnoughts.

 

[ynot56]

Well, there are certainly enough WWI destroyers in the game, Privateers sort of blossom. They go to WWI destroyers.

After screw propeller, the Heavy frigate is way overmatched by commerce raiders until they both go to WWI destroyers.

I just think there needs to be another unit between heavy frigate and WWI destroyer, I am not arguing that heavy frigate should upgrade to broadside ironclad or predreadnaut or even the cruiser line.

 

[Civinator]

I just think there needs to be another unit between heavy frigate and WWI destroyer, I am not arguing that heavy frigate should upgrade to broadside ironclad or predreadnaut or even the cruiser line.

Well, the tech screw propeller has the place for a third unit in the techtree-box. A unit like a 'screw frigate' with the same stats as the commercial raider and upgrading to WW I destroyers and additionally setting the iron frigates (or ironclads) to a little bit stronger stats, but of course still weaker than dreadnoughts.

Another - and may be better - concept could be to add the CCM2 paddle wheelers to the tech steampower and let the heavy frigates upgrade to paddle wheelers. The problem here is, that there is not enough place in the current techtree to add this unit to the techbox and there must be some 'fiddling around' in the techtree, if this is possible. I will reflect about it, but I think this can make sense.

 

[Civinator]

I made a quick graphical test by a photomontage and noticed that the CCM paddle wheelers (upgrades of the heavy frigates) and the CCM paddle steamer (upgrade of the clipper) can be added to the tech steam power. The commercial raiders will be dimmed down in RF to 2. The stats of iron frigates (ironclads) will be slightly leveled up. The next version of RARR will need a slightly adjusted techtree graphic for era 3.

ynot56, thank you very much for your input.

 

[PhilB]

Hi !

I've read a bit more about your CCM mod. There are great ideas in it, but also big changes that would require a lot of time investment to adapt to. I'm glad that you implemented some of them in RARR, and I was thinking of making one more tweak to it, inspired on CCM : the mountain movement restriction. It seems really promising, as I've always thought mountains never really had a big influence on strategy, as the IA would just avoid your defenses if they are guarded, and walk across them if not.
- So first, would you mind if I try to change it on my RARR copy, for personal use ?
- Second, is it just about adding the wheel flag to most of the ground units (except for warriors, conquistadores, etc, as mentionned in the CCM thread).
- Third, do you think it would give good results in terms of game play / strategy, in the RARR context ?

Thanks and merry Christmas.

 

[ynot56]

While we are at it

With the changes to how cities are connected (i.e. with a port, not a harbor), would it make sense to add a worker capability build port, similar to the build airport, but at an earlier point in time, since where I am at, my units on isolated islands suffer from rebellion (not connected to luxuries) and are unable to upgrade (not connected to resources). Getting to a port is a lot tougher than getting to a harbor. Being able to sacrifice a worker to create a port seems like a good trade.

 

[Civinator]

Thank you all for your continuing interest in RARR !

Hi !

I've read a bit more about your CCM mod. There are great ideas in it, but also big changes that would require a lot of time investment to adapt to. I'm glad that you implemented some of them in RARR, and I was thinking of making one more tweak to it, inspired on CCM : the mountain movement restriction. It seems really promising, as I've always thought mountains never really had a big influence on strategy, as the IA would just avoid your defenses if they are guarded, and walk across them if not.
- So first, would you mind if I try to change it on my RARR copy, for personal use ?
- Second, is it just about adding the wheel flag to most of the ground units (except for warriors, conquistadores, etc, as mentionned in the CCM thread).
- Third, do you think it would give good results in terms of game play / strategy, in the RARR context ?

Thanks and merry Christmas.

PhilB, it´s not so difficult to switch to playing CCM2.50 (here you can per example ask XTC) - and of course you can change your RARR copy for personal use to the CCM settings. But it´s not only done by changing the stats of units and terrain to CCM settings (that indeed provide a much deeper tactical combat in the game). You must also have a very sharp look at the balance of units in the game (per example it would be unwise to allow only one civ to have units to attack over mountains without having units for the attacked civ, that can endanger these attacking units in mountain terrain when beeing at the same technical level). There must be a sharp control about pathfinding errors of all combinations of units in RARR, to avoid freezes during the gameplay.

One of the very interesting features I have developed for CCM, that could be transfered to RARR without bigger problems, could be the system of holy men, lawyers, monks and great artists allowing the 'culture-bombing' of cities and endangering the unstopped movement of units of other civs through your own territory. In that case the setting for cultural victories must be set to the CCM levels.

While we are at it

With the changes to how cities are connected (i.e. with a port, not a harbor), would it make sense to add a worker capability build port, similar to the build airport, but at an earlier point in time, since where I am at, my units on isolated islands suffer from rebellion (not connected to luxuries) and are unable to upgrade (not connected to resources). Getting to a port is a lot tougher than getting to a harbor. Being able to sacrifice a worker to create a port seems like a good trade.

Sorry but this is not possible. The only option to build terrain improvements (other than mines, irrigation, fortresses, barricades, roads and railroads) are airfields and outposts. As far as I know, there are no no other options existing in present Civ 3 modding. One could rename the produce airfield option to produce a port and chance the graphics for this worker job, but this worker job could be done deep in land terrain,too, as there exists no possible limitation for that worker job in coastal tiles. Additionally I don´t think, that the worker job "build airfield' can provide a link to the tradenet of a civ, but here I ´m not completly sure.


For airports you have the building and a worker job, for ports (or harbors) you only have a building but no terrain improvement option by a worker job.

 

[ynot56]

Well, I tried, thanks for looking into it. I guess I just have to rush to airports

 

[PhilB]

Thanks for your answers Civinator. I've launched a game to see how it goes. I soon realized that I forgot to take care of the jungles and marshes as well, after having put the wheeled flag on most ground military units. A hardy pioneer of the Zulus got stuck at the edge of our bordering jungle, as his escort failed to enter it. But then a boat came and picked them up... It's not ideal but I think it can avoid the anarchist expansion of the AI. But like you said, it needs a good reflexion on units balancing. I'll keep running the test and share my experience, if anyone is interested.
Thanks again for the mod, I never get tired of it, and it's good to be in such good company in such horsehockey year.
Cheers

 

[Belofon]

Here is a number of issues from currently available RARR build:

1. For Japanese, M42-Dusters don't upgrade to flakpanzers and flakpanzers (type 87) do upgrade to mobile SAMs (for the rest of civs it's opposite):

2. Some unit entries (at least for siege artillery and Asian warriors) are empty:​

3. No Cold War tanks for Persians:​

Also, some suggestions:

1. What about changing of upgrade path for great galleases from frigates to SOLs? Frigates and SOLs become available at the same tech, and IMHO the GGs, as the most powerfull ships of their era, should upgrade to more powerfull SOLs while cheaper and weaker galleases would still upgrade to frigates with similar attitude.
2. What's the point of ever using cannon galleases (btw, another unit with empty entry)? Their stats are worse than stats of much older GGs (while their cost is the same) and contemporary carracks (which aren't that expansive in comparison with cannon galleases and also appear in main tech tree); at the same time, they aren't that stronger than normal galleases due to their much higher cost and late appearance. May be they should be a bit cheaper or they should have better stats (like 5 or even 6 attack and/or 3 defence)?

One of the very interesting features I have developed for CCM, that could be transfered to RARR without bigger problems, could be the system of holy men, lawyers, monks and great artists allowing the 'culture-bombing' of cities and endangering the unstopped movement of units of other civs through your own territory. In that case the setting for cultural victories must be set to the CCM le

Btw, hasn't this system already been added to game in form of the great monastery from theocracy and holy men which it spawns?

 

[Civinator]

Belofon, thank you very much for your reports and suggestions. I will have a closer look into these items when I have the time for it.

 

[Civinator]

For Japanese, M42-Dusters don't upgrade to flakpanzers and flakpanzers (type 87) do upgrade to mobile SAMs (for the rest of civs it's opposite)

Belofon, thank you very much for reporting this error. The type 87 was not added to the upgrade chain. This is fixed now for the next version of RARR. The upgrade of cannon AA tanks to SAM vehicles was generally stopped. So the SAM vehicles have a better AA value, the cannon AA tanks have a better defense value.

Some unit entries (at least for siege artillery and Asian warriors) are empty:

For some of the civilopedia entries of those units in the present version of RARR, the CCM civilopedia entries should be seen if the CCM 2.50 expansion was installed properly. I attache a screenshot of the current RARR civilopedia entry of that Asian warrior. But those entries must still be adjusted in the unit value part of those entries. The entry of the siege artillery until now is missing completely.

No Cold War tanks for Persians:

Belofon, again thank you very much for reporting this error. The Persians now have the M48 as their cold war tech tank.


About your interesting suggestions:

What about changing of upgrade path for great galleases from frigates to SOLs? Frigates and SOLs become available at the same tech, and IMHO the GGs, as the most powerfull ships of their era, should upgrade to more powerfull SOLs while cheaper and weaker galleases would still upgrade to frigates with similar attitude.

I have a problem with the categorization of those ancient great galleasses, as I consider them as a kind of a 'phantasy ship' and therefore I have a tendency to cut out these ships from the mod - but due to the respect for the old creators of DyP and RAR, this ship is still in the RARR mod. The galleass is more a coastal ship, while the SOL is a heavy oceangoing ship. I think, with the current upgrade settings, the combat values of the ancient great galleass are improved enough. It is not intended, that the player should build masses of those "phantasy" great galleases only to upgrade them later to SOLs. Additionaly this would unbalance the construction of smaller vessels compared to heavy vessels even more in this mod.

What's the point of ever using cannon galleases (btw, another unit with empty entry)? Their stats are worse than stats of much older GGs (while their cost is the same) and contemporary carracks (which aren't that expansive in comparison with cannon galleases and also appear in main tech tree); at the same time, they aren't that stronger than normal galleases due to their much higher cost and late appearance. May be they should be a bit cheaper or they should have better stats (like 5 or even 6 attack and/or 3 defence)?

About the civilopedia entry of the cannon galleass, the same has to be said as for the other civilopedia entries. With a proper installation at present you have the CCM civilopedia entries for this unit in RARR. The stats of the "cannon galleass" are better than the stats of the old era1 galleass (A4,D2, Bomb8 compared to A3,D2,Bomb6).





Not mentioned in the current civilopedia entry of the "cannon galleass" is, that this unit also has one additional HP. In the next version of RARR, the upgrade of this unit will be changed to a corvette. At present the purpose of the"cannon galleass" is to be a unit for upgrading the era 1 galleass. In the next version of CCM it is intended, that this unit will be a part of a line of units that are faster in coastal waters compared to normal units. This needs a lot of work in the settings and civilopedia entries of many units (and the coastal terrain) as the movement cost of coastal terrain must be risen to two and the "coastal ships" must receive a movement bonus in that terrain. That´s why the CCM civilopedia entries for those ships are not reworked yet (as it is for the galleass).

Compared to carracks the "cannon galleasses" are cheaper, but they cannot cross ocean terrain and don´t have the enslave option. In the next version of RARR they will move much faster in coastal terrain compared to carracks. May be I could add the enslave option to the "cannon galleasses", too.

Btw, hasn't this system already been added to game in form of the great monastery from theocracy and holy men which it spawns?

This is only a very slim part of the system of holy men in CCM 2.50, that was cautiously implanted into RARR. The most crucial part is, that these units can convert other units to monks and these monks can be 'added to contribute to the cultural benefit of a city' to expand the city borders to the next size. As many CCM succession games at CFC show, this 'cultural bombing' is one of the most liked and best concepts of CCM, as the AI is using this option very well, too. Additionally this concept helps a lot against units from other civs, which are stepping across your territory.

The next level of this system are lawyers and great artists. You can read more about these concepts in the CCM thread.

Edit: After having a look into the RARR mod I see, that I have indeed implanted more of that concept in the current version of RARR. When this concept is implanted completely, it is no longer government specific but generally available in the game.