Rise of Mankind v2.0 discussion

Cuteunit · May 28, 2008

feedbackwise, after playing for a long time last night I kind of see a pattern

a: the AI doesnt seem to like building research structures as much as a player would. Might be why they always fall behind (sometimes by a lot) on research compared to players when no other factor is introduced (noble). Might it be wise to increase the AI weight given to these buildings?

b: The AI has some strange tech path preferences. They will really pay out the nose for Dualism if you have that first, even though they will get nothing out of it. They also seem to think Oil Painting and Heraldry are divine. Observed over the course of four games, they always tech the same way to get these.

c: AI gets really lost in later game techwise. Like they completely ignore Economics for the longest time, advancing much further down other tech lines ( oil painting, always...).

Cuteunit · May 28, 2008

Also, shouldnt the edison workshop not be allowed in the same city with the newton lab and such? You could still quite easily stack Newtons+Edisons, they're not even far apart in the tech tree and you can go a long time without obsoleting newtons... and if you dont want to, you really never have to obsolete Edisons at all. (magnetic levitation is an easily skippable tech for the most part).

Did you take the +25% universal wealth off of Free Market?

also..

Please consider removing the "penalty for civs without X" aspects of government healthcare/emancipation or change how these effects work. I know I personally have the damnedest time ever trying to use Subsidized Healthcare or to use Contracting because the moment I try, every city in my empire gets -12 happy from "we demand gov HC!" etc. The result is having to run my culture percentage so high that any efficiencies gained from these civics are completely lost.

Milarqui · May 28, 2008

I've found a bug on RoM 2.0: when I try to talk with Mehmet II (it says Mehmed II) the whole model save for the eyes is completely red. Anyway, very good mod, I hope that you can polish it a bit!

RobO · May 28, 2008

zappara said:
Version 2.1 progress so far:

While you're at it doing all those changes, here are some balancing suggestions. In general, I feel that there are two many happiness providers.

A small disclaimer: I haven't looked at the cost of these buildings.

Market: Can you make it give more money (say +5%) instead of happiness with each of those resources? If you do that then the standard amount it gives should be 10% instead of 20%. If you can't do it, then consider making it give just one happy face.
Bazaar: Same thing, +10% basic, +5% for each resource.

Same thing for Mall: Change happiness bonus for Hits to money, perhaps also reduce the standard +20% to 15%.
Shopping District: Same as mall. It gives 10 commerce (not a percentage) - is that a mistake?
Supermarket: Same thing - but for Coffee. Maybe some of your new resources fit the bill here as well?

Same thing for Jewellery: Change it to +5% with +5% for each of Gems, Gold, Silver (or 0% basic plus 5% or 10% for each - it does require at least one of them). Alternatively, make it give only one happy face and perhaps also reduce it to +10%. It is overpowered as it is. A third suggestion: Change it to three buildings: Goldsmith, Silversmith, Jewellery, each depending on Gold/Silver/Gems (as appropriate), each giving +10% money and (maybe) +1 happy.

Why does Jewish temple give +2 culture while Confucian Temple gives +1? Hmm, all those temples are somewhat different. There may be a reason, but it does look a bit unbalancing.

Sauna replaces Bath House. Bath House gives 0 happy, Sauna gives +2(!?)

School gives +1 happy per 20% science rate. How long since you have been to school?

Seriously, that and the +happy for culture rate are quite unnecessary.

Sewer gives no unhealth from buildings. That's VERY powerful. +10 health would be less powerful. Or maybe just remove one unhealth from each building, if that's possible.
An aside: I thinmk there's a civic that does the same. It is very powerful as well. But there are so many civics to choose from that it may not matter so much.

Sweat Lodge gives 2 happy more than Hospital. One seems to be enough.

Why does Ceremonial Altar give +1 happy with Hemp? +1 with Sacrifice Cult is probably enough. It's good that it goes obsolete eventually, it's usually a good buy/build.

Chorten (replaces Monument): +2 Happy(!?). Iøm sure you get the drift by now.
Hamman (replaces Aqueduct): Same thing.

Port, Commercial Port, International Port: Can you make it increase trade route yield with those resources instead of giving happiness? Or just give more money? The usual 5% is good. And also decrease the basic trade route bonus a bit. And I think CuteUnits idea of imposing a food penalty is good, but I'd go for a fixed penalty, not -1 per tile.

I may have missed some stuff, but I'm sure you get the trend. And I most likely have missed some buildings that are special to some civs and derived form those I mentioned above.

zappara · May 28, 2008

cha dawn said:
only one player had a complaint about the combination of the science wonders. I like them the way they are in 2.0 and 2.1.

AI players seem to fall behind in tech race since they lack the "intelligence" to stack up science wonders with same efficiency as human player. With limiting wonder amounts to prevent players creating super cities I felt that it was necessary to put limits where you can build science wonders because human player can plan better where to build what with given wonder amount limit.

Cuteunit said:
a: the AI doesnt seem to like building research structures as much as a player would. Might be why they always fall behind (sometimes by a lot) on research compared to players when no other factor is introduced (noble). Might it be wise to increase the AI weight given to these buildings?

b: The AI has some strange tech path preferences. They will really pay out the nose for Dualism if you have that first, even though they will get nothing out of it. They also seem to think Oil Painting and Heraldry are divine. Observed over the course of four games, they always tech the same way to get these.

c: AI gets really lost in later game techwise. Like they completely ignore Economics for the longest time, advancing much further down other tech lines ( oil painting, always...).

a) I recently saw the build order which AI uses to choose which buildings it wants to build. Seems AI weight and flavors are last thing in that list, basically when it gets to that point, it already has chosen what building type it wants to build and flavor only decides which one of the buildings with same kind of modifiers (or something like that). Didn't bookmark that thread where this was mentioned so got to find it again.

b) The reason why AI wants Oil Painting is probably Leonardo's Workshop since it grants 2 free techs.. not sure why it wants those others so badly.

c) I'm fine tuning tech tree little by little - clicking tech on tech tree, see what it requires to reach it and then checking if there's some techs that should be also pre-reqs for it. I'll have to check Economics and all that is related to it...

Cuteunit said:
Also, shouldnt the edison workshop not be allowed in the same city with the newton lab and such? You could still quite easily stack Newtons+Edisons, they're not even far apart in the tech tree and you can go a long time without obsoleting newtons... and if you dont want to, you really never have to obsolete Edisons at all. (magnetic levitation is an easily skippable tech for the most part).

Did you take the +25% universal wealth off of Free Market?

Please consider removing the "penalty for civs without X" aspects of government healthcare/emancipation or change how these effects work. I know I personally have the damnedest time ever trying to use Subsidized Healthcare or to use Contracting because the moment I try, every city in my empire gets -12 happy from "we demand gov HC!" etc. The result is having to run my culture percentage so high that any efficiencies gained from these civics are completely lost.

I "grouped" those science wonders ie. renaissance wonders are one group and industrial wonders another group. I purposely left it to still possibly have 2 science wonders in same city from those eras. Plus it's easier to manage 2 small groups in python than 1 big group - the possible combinations... 3*2 checks or 5*4 checks... :rolleyes:

For Free Market the choice was to remove that wealth bonus or to reduce trade routes by 1 - so I chose trade routes there.

Government Healthcare + emancipation, now there's 2 civics that will be changed but for now I've "skipped" changing that penalty check (change for these has been requested long time ago first time

) - It might be just enough to change smaller values for that penalty but I need to find some time to study how this effect actually works. If I have to remove that penalty, I need alternative ways to cause angriness to balance out all the happiness you get from buildings/resources.

zappara · May 28, 2008

RobO said:
Sauna replaces Bath House. Bath House gives 0 happy, Sauna gives +2(!?)

You should see when we Finns go to sauna! It makes us happy! :lol:

About school - your parents were happy that you got some education, weren't they?

About the Civ specific UUs, I didn't design them, they were originally made by other modders and I didn't touch their effects. So you should be asking those questions from those people who made those Civs - in most cases Civ 4 Gold team.

I don't think it's possible to give gold instead of happiness from resources in building xml tags - there's only tags for bonus health and happiness changes.

Kalimakhus · May 28, 2008

The talk about that there is too much happiness in RoM due to the many buildings and resources is rather theoretical IMO. First of all happiness in RoM comes mainly from buildings. You don't simply improve a resource and connect it to get a happy face in all your cities. So happy faces actually cost you in RoM.

Your cities grow very fast. There is a food boom around the industrial era and with colonists and pioneers your cities already start at 3 and 4 pop. In the same time techs start to obsolete buildings that kept your people happy for centuries.

You shouldn't and you can't build every building in every city. So practically stacking happiness buildings in every city is impossible.

Happiness is only one factor in a complicated game so it is enough challenge as it is now. I don't like it to be too easy that you don't need to look at it but I wouldn't like it to become a nightmare that hampers my growing empire in the time when I move into finishing the game.

PS. People who also have RevolutionDCM will know how ugly it may get if happiness got out of control.

zappara · May 28, 2008

Milarqui said:
I've found a bug on RoM 2.0: when I try to talk with Mehmet II (it says Mehmed II) the whole model save for the eyes is completely red. Anyway, very good mod, I hope that you can polish it a bit!

Sounds like there's textures missing, have to check it out.

little_cyclone · May 28, 2008

Just a quick suggestion. Something that occurred to me the other day. We have the "Weapons Factory" which produces the resource "Ammunition". For arguments sake, since when do weapons factories produce ammunition?

Why not just do a quick rename to "Ordinance Factory". Sounds better a bit better in my opinion

CMKMStephens · May 29, 2008

little_cyclone said:
Just a quick suggestion. Something that occurred to me the other day. We have the "Weapons Factory" which produces the resource "Ammunition". For arguments sake, since when do weapons factories produce ammunition? Why not just do a quick rename to "Ordinance Factory". Sounds better a bit better in my opinion

My soldiers run around stabbing people with bullets, what are your doing?

Cuteunit · May 29, 2008

The more civilizations run gov hc or emancipation the larger the frown count you get for not doing so, somehow modified by the size of your city. -12 happy wasnt an exagerration.

+25% global wealth is rather hugenourmous. Dunno if just losing one trade route will take me back from earning 200 gold per turn for changing to that civic.

No way to make the AI show more love to libraries universities laboratories accelerators schools etc etc?

JosEPh_II · May 29, 2008

I find it's a constant battle to keep the red faces under control. So reducing happiness is not something I would endorse.

Contracting and Gov HC can be/are a royal pain, maybe they're supposed to? Or Not?

Why are the learning Civics so costly? +7 gold a turn to change from Ignorance to apprentice? Yeow! And each successive step is very costly. Military with the -25 to science I never use. I'll stay at Ignorance before I'll use Military. And food must be abundant too.

And Hereditary Rule is a bust for me, I skip it any more like the plaque and head for Majority Rule. The negatives to HRule are a huge hurdle to jump over IMHO.

As for Oil Painting and the AI they head there for the same reason as I do, for Leonardo's Workshop and the 2 Free Techs. It's a player/AI Race, like in CiV II for the Great Library was. Which I like.

Just some of my observations.

This is Still the Beast (BEST) Mod.

JosEPh

little_cyclone · May 30, 2008

JosEPh_II said:
Why are the learning Civics so costly? +7 gold a turn to change from Ignorance to apprentice? Yeow! And each successive step is very costly. Military with the -25 to science I never use. I'll stay at Ignorance before I'll use Military. And food must be abundant too.

Same here, i have never ever used Military for the damage it does to my science level.

JosEPh_II said:
And Hereditary Rule is a bust for me, I skip it any more like the plaque and head for Majority Rule. The negatives to HRule are a huge hurdle to jump over IMHO.

Another similarity to me. I make a beeline for Majority Rule as quickly as I can, and only pay Hereditary Rule scant attention, if that.

JosEPh_II said:
This is Still the Beast (BEST) Mod.

Doesn't this go without saying??

zappara · May 30, 2008

Cuteunit said:
No way to make the AI show more love to libraries universities laboratories accelerators schools etc etc?

Take a look inside CvCityAI.cpp file, that file defines how AI chooses production... it's massively complex operation, I tried to understand some pieces of it but only got headache. So for now I'll just have to try different values for AI weight and for flavors...

@JosEPh_II

I think Apprentice has low upkeep or was it medium.. anyway 7 gold is not much if your economy is well balanced.

I've used Military Training quite often, it does limit growth/science but really boosts your empire's military production and extra experience is needed. Conquering cities boosts your research too - I think it as a war time civic option and you got to be warmonger if you intend to use this Civic (or you are scrambling under enemy attack and lack defense units).

zappara · May 30, 2008

Version 2.1 work in progress:

Spoiler :

Again these are not final changes, more things on my list - at least some new unit classes are still missing and changes to improvements. Though with improvements I'll have to go through PlotLSystem.xml and modify it too and that's one time consuming operation.

I was testing these changes yesterday evening and my empire didn't survive to middle ages (emperor difficulty) - so much for testing it out

Have to start new game on weekend and wish for better luck.

molnibalage · May 30, 2008

How can I make an install that has all of bombardment MOD improvements (archers capabiltiy too) but doesn't have the revoluton part? AI handles VERY bad this thing this is a not a good improvement. Never have threated me a riot...

Maatissi · May 30, 2008

zappara said:
You should see when we Finns go to sauna! It makes us happy!

- I haven't installed the Extra Civs Pack, but I assume that sauna is the special building for the Finns? Should it be renamed as "public sauna" or something like that, since the sauna itself is truely an ancient invention... Even as old as the first human settlement in Finland, I'd guess.

Does it require marble? It shouldn't. Perhaps stone for the big kiuas? :lol:

Or should you also add the ancient (private) saunas as a flavor building, perhaps replacing the monument giving the same bonuses with the same cost? (Its a bit problematic since monument doesn't increase healthiness, though...) Perhaps the Finnish civilization should always have expansive leaders to simulate the sauna healthiness. :lol:

Please also consider that suggestion switching the American UU to F-15 and using the SEAL graphics to create a Special forces unit. It is the most logical and realistic change to do, no matter how you look into it!

zappara · May 30, 2008

@Maatissi

If you look those patch notes, you'll notice there's Special forces unit with navy seal graphics..

Haven't had time to check plane units yet but I intend to fix the incorrect information about them as has been pointed out by few posts.

JosEPh_II · May 30, 2008

zappara said:
<snip>
@JosEPh_II

I think Apprentice has low upkeep or was it medium.. anyway 7 gold is not much if your economy is well balanced. I've used Military Training quite often, it does limit growth/science but really boosts your empire's military production and extra experience is needed. Conquering cities boosts your research too - I think it as a war time civic option and you got to be warmonger if you intend to use this Civic (or you are scrambling under enemy attack and lack defense units).

It's supposed to be low upkeep but it's not in line with low upkeep in the other Civic categories. It matches up in cost with High. Actually the 7 gold was low, it actually cost me 11 gold per turn.

And that took the wind outta my economy at that time. Since the gold bonuses were removed from Judaism, and the other religions that had them, it's more of a struggle to keep the economy in the positive.

Still learning the New twists.

JosEPh

DarthLeon · May 31, 2008

Why are all buildings destroyed when you capture a city? I know this has always been an issue, but with the mod it is much much crippling. One of the main points of capturing a city is that it starts with infastructure. When the nazis captured paris, they didnt destroy all the granarys and skyscrapers and barracks' and universitys and salons and observatorys and butherys and markets and grocers and librarys and bazaars and factorys and assembly plants and etc., etc., etc. Seriously, why destroy EVERYTHING? :mad:

ps. Sorry for my little rant. Armys did not destroy all infastructure in a city when they captured them in real life. Why in Civ 4? I dont suppose theres a way to stop that from happening?

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