'Rising Tide' expansion announced!

[Minor Annoyance]

One unit per tile isn't going anywhere. They've already decided on this. If they did anything new it would be in civ 6, and it wouldn't be going back to anything they already did before. To think that any of us posting here could convince them to change a feature this fundamental is the hight of arrogance.

 

[AriochIV]

It's certainly not going to change in an expansion.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Coming back from the 1UPT side track... I wonder what they are doing about the game pace. At the moment Civ:BE, in my opinion, suffers from a very hurried endgame.

In a way, it's good, because the game tends to lock into place in the late game without major game changers like aerial units, nukes and ideologies in BNW, but it also means that the last 5 affinity levels after unlocking the victory wonders are, in a way, "dead". Ditto for the (actually exciting) outer ring wonders and the ultimate units - they are all impressive but come too late to actually contribute much.

With RT, we're getting even more goodies but without seriously messing with the late game and the hurried pace, we're not going to get much out of them, I feel.

 

[DefiantMars]

In the livestream video, they did say that they are doing a rebalance of the victory conditions, whatever that means. We can hope that they tried to address the rushed late game and "dead techs".

Speaking of outer ring techs, does anyone actually use the Rocktopus or Aegis? If Rising Tide is going to add unique units for the Hybrid Affinities, the cost of attaining any affinity unit should probably be examined.

 

[AriochIV]

Hopefully they will revisit the victory conditions. In addition to your points about pacing, I think they should also address the lack of variety in them (all of them being "beeline to appropriate tech, build item, turtle, win") as well as the lack of interaction required with other factions (you can lose to a faction you've had essentially no contact with).

And no, I never use the Aegis. It's a level 7 unit that's harder to get to in the tech tree than the level 9 unit.

 

[Lord Tirian]

...as well as the lack of interaction required with other factions (you can lose to a faction you've had essentially no contact with).

I wonder whether the addition of new sponsors might actually help with that if they raise the number of factions per map. Part of Civ's mid-to-late-game is traditionally hitting an expansion limit as all land is taken (with a second rush after you can cross oceans). In Civ:BE... this point never comes, you hit other constraints to expansion much earlier (health, actual need for more cities, actual good spots), so you get much less of that "border rubbing" that causes conflict.

 

[Gorbles]

Additionally, the new landscape of diplomacy could alter those dynamics beyond any expectations, if we assume the rework will be as substantial as they're claiming.

I'm hopeful, obviously.

 

[AriochIV]

I wonder whether the addition of new sponsors might actually help with that if they raise the number of factions per map. Part of Civ's mid-to-late-game is traditionally hitting an expansion limit as all land is taken (with a second rush after you can cross oceans). In Civ:BE... this point never comes, you hit other constraints to expansion much earlier (health, actual need for more cities, actual good spots), so you get much less of that "border rubbing" that causes conflict.

I think that was intentional, with the hostile environment, aliens and stations meant to fill in the gaps and give the factions something to interact over, but that gameplay and level of interaction never materialized.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I think that was intentional, with the hostile environment, aliens and stations meant to fill in the gaps and give the factions something to interact over, but that gameplay and level of interaction never materialized.

Good point. I hope they will put effort into that and try to make it materialise. I think having "border rubbing" as end game conflict instead as mid-game conflict would be a welcome change.

But part of the problem is that aliens alone are not sufficient to fill that spot as there are no real "goals" (with full AI enemies, you have land grabs, pupating, diplomacy and all that) - aliens are dumb targets.

They need something more tangible if they want to make the "hostile world" part work, a bit like Endless Legend had the winters (though this would not work in Civ:BE whatsoever). At the very least, there needs to be a way for native life to escalate in strength (unit strength, not numbers) to make them dangerous in the mid-game (and there's evidence that they are supposed to stay relevant for some time, e.g. the enrage effect of finishing the Mind Flower). This includes the "flora" as well, i.e. miasma needs to be more.. active.

 

[Halbbruder]

I think that was intentional, with the hostile environment, aliens and stations meant to fill in the gaps and give the factions something to interact over, but that gameplay and level of interaction never materialized.

True, mainly because stations don't respawn after they left or more don't spawn later in game. Aliens don't scale later into the game. It would have made a lot more sense if the aliens had increased combat bonuses while irritated (orange) and enraged (red), maybe even a greater combat bonus and a new attitude level (purple?) if the mind flower is built, in that they remain permanently enraged and they spawn close to the mind flower.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I'm beginning to wonder if stations being so often in the way was an intended feature. A way of slowing down expansion. Have them be frequently destroyed until they settle somewhere no one else wants to. I was quite happy in one game when my first station settled far into the snow, but they withdrew before I set up a route.

Speaking of outer ring techs, does anyone actually use the Rocktopus or Aegis? If Rising Tide is going to add unique units for the Hybrid Affinities, the cost of attaining any affinity unit should probably be examined.

Had a thread asking that that ended mostly being about the lack of a midgame which was because of the victory wonders completing too soon.

In the livestream video, they did say that they are doing a rebalance of the victory conditions, whatever that means. We can hope that they tried to address the rushed late game and "dead techs".

Speaking of outer ring techs, does anyone actually use the Rocktopus or Aegis? If Rising Tide is going to add unique units for the Hybrid Affinities, the cost of attaining any affinity unit should probably be examined.

I have used the Rocktopus. The upgrade has it spread miasma, making it a reusable condenser. Could be very useful if the game lasted at that point. The miasma spread should be a base ability. I could see you taking one unit and a Rocktopus for support, blocking an area with the units alone and in miasma bonuses increasing their power. It's not worth the trouble as it is.
Military orbitals (Including the Rocktopus) should use regular combat rules when being shot at instead of being one shotted.

 

[Galgus]

I'm beginning to wonder if stations being so often in the way was an intended feature. A way of slowing down expansion. Have them be frequently destroyed until they settle somewhere no one else wants to. I was quite happy in one game when my first station settled far into the snow, but they withdrew before I set up a route.


Had a thread asking that that ended mostly being about the lack of a midgame which was because of the victory wonders completing too soon.



I have used the Rocktopus. The upgrade has it spread miasma, making it a reusable condenser. Could be very useful if the game lasted at that point. The miasma spread should be a base ability. I could see you taking one unit and a Rocktopus for support, blocking an area with the units alone and in miasma bonuses increasing their power. It's not worth the trouble as it is.
Military orbitals (Including the Rocktopus) should use regular combat rules when being shot at instead of being one shotted.

Generally I think UU's would feel more interesting and unique if base abilities locked until they upgrade were available as soon as they unlock.

Honestly I'd rather have their abilities distinguish them more than better stats.

 

[DefiantMars]

I have used the Rocktopus. The upgrade has it spread miasma, making it a reusable condenser. Could be very useful if the game lasted at that point. The miasma spread should be a base ability. I could see you taking one unit and a Rocktopus for support, blocking an area with the units alone and in miasma bonuses increasing their power. It's not worth the trouble as it is.
Military orbitals (Including the Rocktopus) should use regular combat rules when being shot at instead of being one shotted.

I seldom find myself pick up the Designer Lifeforms Tech. Its just too far out of the way for me to merit picking it up. The same goes for Surogacy. I'm not very good at the game and I'm a builder-y type, so I've only ever successfully used the Rocktopus on lower difficulties, when I'm not in any rush to complete the victory conditions. I understand the area denial potential and its a pretty novel defensive unit. But as you have said, its more trouble than its worth.

 

[Doviello]

Most of the late game units are too slow to be useful. When i play conquest-only, large maps (my favorite setup), i often go for octopus, sabr, and those endgame units, but unless i pick an upgrade for extra move or no setup needed, i can (will) often take a target city before those units can even position themselves to shoot. Fun units, but are too hard to use and too hard to get.

The Endless Legend "winter" event could work on a specific map type in BE. Actually, i can imagine a lot of fun scenarios for specific map types: a world that spin around itself very slowly, so there's a wide patch of ice and tundra that slowly moves around the map, 1 column of hexes per turn; low-g world, where everything moves faster and has more range; a high-g-world; etc. The developers surely could have been way more creative.

 

[Mustakrakish]

Guys? guys? GUYS!

1) Affinity shouldn't be so tied with tech > let me explore the web. As been said already, it's linear, simply beeline for needed affinity > profit. Not good.

2) Unit upgrades shouldn't be so tied with affinity = > again, let me explore the web. Getting OP units just by beelining affinity is NOT good. Maybe in addition to affinity level, there should be also a tech requirement for say, upgrade unit to stage 3, or even better maybe there should be stages within stages (yo dawg). What I mean is, umm, here's a simplified example:

From reaching needed affinity level, we got stage 2 'basic' infantry with 10 str, by researching tech A we can equip said unit with new weapons/equpment/whatever and it's now a stage 2 'veteran' infantry with 13str (with ability X). By researching tech B we can either further upgrade the now stage 2 'veteran' to 'elite' 17str infantry (with abilities XY) OR we never even got tech A, and went (reasons) straight for tech B, upgrading stage 2 infantry to slightly different 14str 'veteran' (with ability Y).
>
Now we reach needed affinity for stage 3 'basic' infantry with 14str. Now we CAN equip it with same tech A or B or both, netting us a more powerful stage 3 'elite' 21str infantry OR we can research techs C and/or D which gives us more powerful upgrades for stage 3 infantry, that stage 2 infantry could not handle (can't equip).

Oh, and of course all the tech upgrades and stage upgrades should cost money, because weaponry and war should cost money.

What do you think, eh? Eh? My IMO's on the matter, anyhow...

 

[iki]

1. Here I think the fact that it should be 60 quest 40 tech

2. Have to disagree here I think the affinities need more unique units.

 

[Lord Tirian]

1) Agreed, I think techs should contribute something but not full levels. In fact, I'd argue that a solution would be using buildings and improvements as one of the sources of affinity XP.

Not necessarily as yields, though, but as one-off requirement. For example, if over 50% of your pop lives in a city with an Old Earth Relic, gain Purity XP. Over 50% pop has a Network? Supremacy XP. And so forth (each of them is an one-off, of course). That way, you even have the interesting side effect of acquiring XP if you conquer a city and it somehow keeps certain buildings/wonders.

2) I like the idea of tying tech into it but that implementation sounds a bit awkward and fiddly. Having a "fixed", less tech-dependent affinity system would help enough already, if done right.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

1) Agreed, I think techs should contribute something but not full levels. In fact, I'd argue that a solution would be using buildings and improvements as one of the sources of affinity XP.

I like the idea that buildings would contribute affinity XP. It is logical that if, for example, you build a very supremacy type building that it would be an indicator that your civ is moving towards supremacy and therefore should gain supremacy points. Also, tying affinity to what buildings you build would better connect your affinity to your gameplay strategy since your affinity would be more tied to what the player is doing. I would propose that when your civ builds a certain building in every city, that your civ would gain a lump sum of XP points in that affinity. For example, if you build an old earth relic in every city, your civ gets +10 Purity XP. Now, this would indeed make it much easier for smaller civs to advance in affinity than larger ones. But that is by design. It would represent the fact that is easier for a small civ to radically change than for a larger civ (after all, becoming a certain affinity would represent a radical change in your society).

 

[Ryika]

HandyVac actually made a mod that does a very similar thing already: Affinity as Yields (Workshop / Civfanatics)

 

[iki]

I'm not sure it should unless they actually show those as mini buildings like civilization 5 and other games did, I would like to see how they look. But maybe that's just me. And show you these new buildings are shaping your Civilization.

Cities now just look so generic even when you have mixed affinities. But I'm guessing that is such a low priority.


Little building sprites please ???

On second thought I think only the first of each affinity building should bump you up a level as well as technology and quests adding the rest.