RLC#1. Suryavarman of Khmer.

[pigswill]

How could I forget KISS (keep it simple, stupid) which is sound advice for everything.

I'll go for BW next to get settler out slightly earlier. Scout can keep heading north dodging from forest to hill etc as much as possible.

 

[pigswill]

A quote from Cuban Isolationists, still the classic Civ4 SG: "Sirian's motto: Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good".

So I went for BW, worker moves etc as planned. We have a warrior. Settler due in 6 turns with one chop. On T24 BW was discovered. Remember the 'mysterious clearing' (tm)?

Our cowardly scout ran into a lion on T14 but had a move left to run away. The snivelling wretch ran away, straight into another lion! . The mighty Khmer empire is better off without him.
It does mean the the mysterious north remains terra incognito, however he did survive long enough to confirm we have ocean to the north east and the Celts do appear to be rather peninsular. Our warrior is heading north to hopefully do a bit of exploring before being recalled for escort duties.

I'm slightly perplexed by the espionage screen:

Why do we only have 76 ep after 24 turns @4ept? We have 105% vs Brennus, does this mean anything significant?

Maybe time for some decisions. If we're going to axe-rush Brennus then teching the Wheel next to connect copper would speed things up. If we're going to ignore him after blocking him in then AH next followed by wheel>pottery had advantages.

Its also time to think about the optimal placement for our second city. I'll add the save if anyone's in the mood for dot-mapping.

 

[learner gamer]

Tentative dotmap attached.

Re: tech. Popping copper was indeed lucky, but going BW instead of AH was probably the better move as @kossin noted...so take some credit for your decision. Being EXP and CRE means you can whip cheap granaries and libraries for super fast early beakers.

FWIW, I’d go TW > pottery > AH next to solve the commerce issue once and for all - and plop a city up in the vicinity of the rice / FPs (see dotmap). One pop whip a granary and away you go.

I’d also be inclined to follow @vranasm's line here and just block off Brennus for now. Whilst you could rush Brennus, I think it’d be handy to see how much more land there is around to settle and see how close any neighbours are (and if indeed there are any) before you commit to rushing. After all, building units and rushing Brennus might allow another AI to REx into what land you can see. (Pity about the scout but, oh well, natural selection and all that. )

Fingers crossed, Brennus might be kind enough to found a religion and spread it to you for some much needed (by the looks of it) extra happiness. Talking of happiness, the best reason I can think of for rushing Brennus super early is to capture the stone you can see and use it to build the mids for rep. As it stands though, I think @cbucks has it right: you look to have room for 3-4 good cities (and perhaps more in the fog), so something involving HAs (if horses are around) or perhaps catas / axes / swords will likely work fine.

Re: EP. You met Brennus T5 and are now at T24, so 76 EP = (24-5)*4 EP per turn. Your EP ratio might suggest that Brennus hasn't met anyone else yet either.

 

[Soirana]

If we're going to axe-rush Brennus...

I am sincerely lost by why would you rush him right now.

Unless you meet two other AI that is like shooting yourself in foot. If you and brenus are allone [sorta unlikely given all that land and yours and Brenus placement] you doom yourself to isolation.
If you have one other AI you doom yourself to semi isolation.

On top of that given how slow [relatively speaking] AI expands on this level, you can beat him to all sweet FP and keep him for trades. Not like Brenus is a Alexander or Monty and would make your life worse for sticking around at least until construction.

 

[Soirana]

Re: EP. You met Brennus T5 and are now at T24, so 76 EP = (24-5)*4 EP per turn. Your EP ratio might suggest that Brennus hasn't met anyone else yet either.

Brenus has raised espionage slider as some AI like to do. Without knowing at which moment he did so I would be rather conservative about guessing meeting or not meeting someone.

 

[learner gamer]

Brenus has raised espionage slider as some AI like to do. Without knowing at which moment he did so I would be rather conservative about guessing meeting or not meeting someone.

Agreed. It's precisely why I quite deliberately used the word "might" in the post. Brennus may actually have just met an AI (or more) and have greater EP allocated to @pigswill having previously focussed EP on Sury.

EDIT: Talking of Brennus, I wonder if he'll be kind enough to use the stone to build the mids....that might make him a juicier target.

 

[Kingjester1]

In this scenario, I would settle the rice/FPs site to the northeast and seal off Brennus. If you have enough space to the north, you should be able to easily hit 6-8 cities and get a strong economy going. If you have a neighbor close in the north they will probably become your main threat and could make a nice warring target.

 

[klonoklown]

In this scenario, I would settle the rice/FPs site to the northeast and seal off Brennus. If you have enough space to the north, you should be able to easily hit 6-8 cities and get a strong economy going. If you have a neighbor close in the north they will probably become your main threat and could make a nice warring target.

I definitely agree, maybe even choke brennus.

 

[pigswill]

So a clear consensus on not rushing Brennus. Need to discover if there are any more civs around and its still fairly early in the game. Blocking city to north east around rice/floodplains sounds good. A few viable spots. Learner gamer's coastal city has merit but so does a city 2 north of there grabbing rice and PH.

Techwise I think I'll go for AH before pottery>wheel to boost food and hammers before going for FP cottage spam.

Border pops next turn and warrior can explore a couple of tiles north west before returning for escort duties (unless he gets killed by a bear of course).

 

[pigswill]

Played 6 more turns taking us to T30 (2800bc).

On T25 (3000bc) we meet an AI who's only slightly less annoying than Sury.

So we're not isolated with Brennus. Its nice to have a landgrabbing creative protective neighbour with an decent early UU, at least there's no signs of a Sumerian border yet.

Hinduism is discovered in 2920bc which is surprisingly late, maybe there's a shortage of mystical civilisations in the game. However Brennus and Gilgamesh remain resolutely agnostic for the moment.

A quick chop and the settler is completed, worker has moved to a forest next to copper to chop out another worker before Yas starts growing on warriors.

Decision time:

A, B or C?

A is coastal and grabs clams once fishing is in, oasis, 3FP,4 naff tiles and qute a bit of overlap with Yas.

B gets oasis, 4FP, rice, PH, 3 naff tiles and grass/plains has a bit of production.

C gets oasis, 6FP, rice and 6 naff tiles so more commerce, production from whip.

Here's a look at the northern marches.

My preference is for site C. It blocks Brennus that bit earlier and has plenty of food, with a cheap granary and library it will become a pretty good early commerce city and expansive helps compensates for the disease-ridden papyrus swamps.

 

[Shaandore]

First, I would have settled A to grab the clams (5F2C with lighthouse is not that bad, plus it's coastal), but it could be grabbed by a city on that tundra hill on the small island (it would bring incense too).

On a second thought I prefer B because it has more production. Having no hammers at all is a pain in the ***. You need many buildings (granary, forge, courthouse, library, university, levee come to mind) EDIT: also happiness buildings, maybe health buildings later. Whipping away those nice cottages is usually a bad move. It has more workable tiles, wich is handy in late game, and makes more room for a super commerce capital on that nice FP land northeast. I would also consider a city 1 NE of "brennusblocker" tag, it could steal the stone, and would be an OK early cottage city.

You have very nice production sites to the north. It is a good idea to grab those nice cities after Brennus is blocked.

 

[learner gamer]

Assuming something among the north of the rice / FPs is out (ie. the choice is A, B or C), I’d go B. It offers a plains hill for hammers and can work the capital’s cows, neither of which are available to C.

FWIW, I think A (which IMHO would’ve been city #3) is 2nd choice at the mo, since you don’t yet have fishing...so can’t leverage the seafood yet anyway. (BTW, even though it has very few hammers, A can serve as a pretty decent GP farm IMHO thanks to Sury being EXP and CRE and you having BW.) Perhaps the clams can be settled as that island for coastal trade routes if you settle B.

FWIW, I don’t see a great urgency in blocking off Brennus. The peak next to the stone will block a good chunk of land until he’s prepared to ship a settler via galley. What’s more, my guess is that, like most AIs, he’ll probably settle the stone or incense as city #2 because they’re closer to home. Instead, the bigger issue IMHO could well yet prove to be commerce, especially with a huge supply of hammers now available post BW.

 

[pigswill]

I'd probaby have to agree that B has the better long term potential but still pondering this one.

I don't really share the obsession with early commerce. It looks as if any of the second city sites will have a TR with Yas via river/coast. Working oasis to start while Yas works corn and wheat will give an extra 2 commerce so the city should be self funding. I'd rather get the cows worked earlier and locate any horses. After that its wheel>pots>lib. Once I've got thoses three techs (and maybe sailing) then I can afford to rex particularly with cheap granaries and libraries.

 

[learner gamer]

One last thought: how do you intend to settle the FPs? I ask because, looking again, I notice @Shaandore's great bureau site 2NE of the rice. It'll suffer quite a bit of unhealthiness (which is why - combined with the lack of obvious early happiness - I dotmapped the area as two cities)...but, on reflection, I wonder if it might be worthwhile working out what the healthiness of a city there would be, given your EXP trait and the health resources you can settle.

This is also relevant to the current decision since settling B will prohibit settling a potential HE site NW of the rice....which will dotmap nicely if you settle the FPs as a single bureau capital.

EDIT: Just looking again, you could settle B, the bureau site 2NE of the rice and perhaps 2S or S,SE of the grassland cows as a HE site.

 

[vranasm]

settling directly into flood plains means almost no hills.

settling 1N above rice shares a lot of flood plains AND a lot of hills

 

[Benginal]

I love a good settling debate. I'll stay out of this one except to remind everybody that most games are won or lost in the first 100 turns. Therefore, settling a city based on its ability to produce a levee is silly. Ask yourselves the questions:

1) What do you need right now?
2) What will you need in the next 50 turns?
3) Which city sites give (1)? Are there any that give (2)? Settle there

 

[learner gamer]

@vranasm: Well, you'd get a plains hill and a grassland hill. But I think I know what you're driving at...a city in the rice / FPs / hills area will give you a very powerful 2nd city able to contribute lots early. It's another reason why I dotmapped the area as I did...although I mentioned 2N of the rice for a couple of extra grassland hills.

 

[Shaandore]

I love a good settling debate. I'll stay out of this one except to remind everybody that most games are won or lost in the first 100 turns. Therefore, settling a city based on its ability to produce a levee is silly. Ask yourselves the questions:

1) What do you need right now?
2) What will you need in the next 50 turns?
3) Which city sites give (1)? Are there any that give (2)? Settle there

You are right on the levee, it is not important now.

The capital is commerce poor, so he obviously needs a commerce city (Or two). In my experience the really useful commerce cities have at least 2 hammer tiles, otherwise they just take too long to set up.

 

[Soirana]

@vranasm: Well, you'd get a plains hill and a grassland hill.

1N of rice gets like 3 green hills, no?

Overall it looks like best place, providing coins early on and strong city as happy cap goes up.

 

[learner gamer]

^^^Yep. 1N of rice is certainly very strong. Which is better? You may be right on 1N since it also works the oasis earlier for a little more commerce – but as I’m sure you’re aware (since you’re a better player than I am) it’s very possible to win with either.

Question: where would you place city #2? A, B or C as per @pigswill’s post or in the rice / FP / hills (which would be my choice if shadowing)?