Ron Paul: Chris Kyle deserved to die.

[MobBoss]

[citation needed]

http://www.dallasnews.com/health/he...d-veterans-to-address-ptsd-misconceptions.ece

Roberts said it’s hard to know exactly what happened when Kyle brought Routh to a gun range in Erath County. But, Roberts said, he didn’t see any problem with taking veterans with PTSD to events involving weapons.

“We’ve done hunting events, shooting events, fishing events. The guys love it — they love being in that environment,” he said. “The key is being around other warriors and being in an environment where you feel safe to talk about what you’re dealing with.”

Mike Rials, 28, of Dallas did three combat tours with the Marines. Assigned to the infantry, he was just 19 when he deployed to Iraq in 2004. He fought in Fallujah and Haditha, two major hot spots in Iraq.

When he returned home, Rials suffered from anxiety and depression. He hated crowds and went out as little as possible. Eventually, he enrolled at UT Dallas, got involved with the school’s veterans center and began getting treatment for PTSD at the university’s Center for Brain Health.

He now works as an outreach coordinator at the Center for Brain Health. His job is to help find recent war veterans in need of treatment for mental health issues.

Veterans with PTSD are less likely to harm others than themselves — by engaging in addictive behaviors like heavy drinking and substance abuse, he said. When he heard about Saturday’s killings, he felt overwhelming sadness for the families of the victims and a twinge of regret. He wished he could have met the accused gunman in time to get him help.

“If I had known [Routh],” Rials said, “I would have tried to reach out to him.”

Odds are Kyle was trying to reach out to him as well when he was killed.

 

[Gucumatz]

Once again Mob Boss, thanks for bringing an important perspective to these forums. Are you the only one to have served in the military here?

 

[MobBoss]

I have to agree that treating PTSD with guns is one of the least intelligent things out of the far right in a while and that is saying something given the sheer volume of stupid stuff which routinely comes out of the far right.

This isnt a 'far right' issue. Btw, not everyone with PTSD shows it in the same way. Its quite possible that Kyles killer had far more wrong with him mentally than just PTSD.

Putting those suffering from PTSD into situations where they are comfortable and able to open up about their illness is a good thing and proven to work in many circumstances. Its not an invention of the right.

Heck, at Madigan Army Medical Center, one of the techniques they use is this computer simulator of a convoy situation in Iraq/Afghanistan in order to treat soldiers suffering from PTSD/TBI from IED explosions. It tries to identify why soldiers suffer flashbacks of those incidents, and then treat those issues.

@Gucumatz: no, there are several of us here.

 

[History_Buff]

Once again Mob Boss, thanks for bringing an important perspective to these forums. Are you the only one to have served in the military here?

Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure Patroklos is active in the navy. Which probably explains why he has posting sprees, and then seems to disappear for a while.

 

[Formaldehyde]

From the same article that Mobboss posted, but chose not to highlight:

There is no strong evidence that someone with PTSD is “going to be violent toward anybody,” said Dr. John Hart, a national expert on PTSD and the medical science director at the Center for Brain Health at the University of Texas at Dallas. “I wouldn’t have the general public believe they’re more prone to violent behavior toward others.”

'Crazy vet' assumptions after shootings more stereotype than reality

WASHINGTON -- When renowned sniper Chris Kyle was killed by a fellow veteran on Saturday, the news brought familiar headlines of the instability of returning warfighters and the dangers of post-traumatic stress disorder.

But health experts say that’s more Hollywood stereotype than reality, and that blaming veterans’ violence on their PTSD makes as much sense as blaming it on their broken leg.

“There is zero linkage between PTSD and criminal behavior,” said Barbara Van Dahlen, a clinical psychologist and founder of the veterans charity Give an Hour.

“We see veterans with PTSD who can become overwhelmed by a situation and may look to push back or push away. But that’s not the same thing as violent and aggressive behavior towards others.”

Researchers have established a link between traumatic stress disorders and a series of destructive behaviors: drug and alcohol abuse, self-cutting, suicide.

But the link between the disorder and violence toward others is much murkier, often connected only through secondary effects or compounding illnesses.

Police say that Kyle, a decorated former Navy SEAL and author of “American Sniper,” and his friend Chad Littlefield were killed by Eddie Ray Routh at a shooting range in Texas. Details are still in dispute, but Kyle was known to counsel veterans suffering from PTSD.

Routh served four years in the Marine Corps, including tours in Iraq and Haiti. Investigators said he had told police he suffered from PTSD but his arrest affidavit suggests that he might have murdered the men as part of a plan to steal a truck.

It’s unclear whether he has been diagnosed with the disorder. In a 911 call obtained by local media, Routh’s sister said he suffered from the illness and had received care recently in a mental hospital.

But most of the headlines in the days following the crime assumed that Routh had the condition.

CNN ran a story online asking whether veterans with mental illness should be permitted to have guns. NBC wrote a piece stating that the noise at shooting ranges can trigger panic responses in PTSD sufferers.

Up to one in five veterans returning from the recent wars could suffer from depression or some sort of post-traumatic stress, according to a 2008 Rand Corp. study. Despite the perception that mentally ill warriors pose a public health threat -- veterans derisively call it “the Rambo effect” -- research has shown only a tenuous link between PTSD and veterans committing violent, impulsive acts against others.

Federal researchers have identified 30 mass shootings in America since 1999. Of those, only four have involved veterans or military personnel. Of those, none of the shooters had been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

A survey of nearly 1,400 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans conducted by the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill in 2010 found that servicemembers returning from deployment were more likely to lash out against others, with more than one in 10 threatening to use a weapon during a fight.

That study cited PTSD and combat exposure as possible factors in the violent behavior, but also blamed drug and alcohol misuse, domestic violence history, past criminal tendencies and immaturity of the veterans. A troubled history was more indicative of future problems than PTSD.

VA research has shown that divorce rates for veterans with PTSD are two times greater than those of other war veterans, and found that vets with PTSD have higher rates of physical and verbal abuse against their spouses.

Those researchers blamed the stress of dealing with the illness as a trigger for the violence, not the diagnosis itself.

In Time magazine this week, Dr. Elspeth Cameron Ritchie, a former Army psychiatrist, clarified the difference between an anxiety disorder and psychosis. The former can cause confusion, frustration and an inability to function, but does not affect the ability to tell right from wrong. The latter is a disassociation from reality.

But for many individuals unfamiliar with mental health illnesses, the distinction is lost.

In an editorial in USA Today this week, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius wrote that only 3 percent to 5 percent of violent crimes are committed by people with a serious mental illness. But most Americans remain ignorant and fearful of the topic.

“Our first reaction is often not to reach out, but to turn away,” she wrote.

Van Dahlen said PTSD sufferers are more likely to withdraw from human interaction than strike out at strangers. She sees a bigger social danger in veterans who ignore or deny readjustment issues than those who seek treatment for mental illnesses.

“The ones who decide to ‘white knuckle’ it, whether because of denial or fear, they don’t talk to their families, they don’t seek help, and things get worse,” she said. “When they don’t acknowledge one problem, it can lead to more conditions later on.”

But news reports and public fear about “crazy war veterans” can dissuade veterans from seeking help, she said. Veterans advocates and VA officials have lamented that for years.

When Army veteran Wade Michael Page fatally shot six people and wounded four others in a mass shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin last August, officials at Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America almost immediately fielded numerous interview requests about the long-term effects of war and PTSD.

But Page left the service in 1998 and never deployed overseas. The PTSD narrative was nothing more than a media assumption played out before most of the facts were made public.

The reasons behind the Kyle case might never be known. Routh is believed to be the only living witness of Kyle’s death. Police officials have had him on suicide watch since he was taken into custody.

In her analysis, Ritchie said it was too early to speculate on his motive. The crime could be connected to PTSD, or another mental illness, or drug abuse, or a number of other causes.

“Then again, the alleged killer simply could be evil,” she wrote.

This is quite likely just more knee-jerk reaction from amateur psychologists looking for excuses for what is probably simple criminal behavior by an individual with known emotional and mental issues, much like the Sikh temple case where it was finally determined that it wasn't related to PTSD at all.

There are even reports that Routh never saw combat since he was an armorer and rarely ventured outside the base during his brief deployment to Iraq, much less that he was ever officially diagnosed with PTSD.

 

[MobBoss]

There are even reports that Routh never saw combat since he was an armorer and rarely ventured outside the base during his brief deployment to Iraq, much less that he was ever officially diagnosed with PTSD.

You dont have to have seen or been in combat to have PTSD form.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Is it me or does the public hold really cartoonish ideas about what PTSD is?

 

[MobBoss]

Is it me or does the public hold really cartoonish ideas about what PTSD is?

Well, Form certainly does.

 

[strijder20]

If he really only said
"Chris Kyle"s death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn"t make sense."
then I don't see what exactly is so controversial about it.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Well, I was referencing Ron Paul's statements. I'm not an expert on PTSD or how it effects people I'd consider myself a little more read up on it than the average Joe. Case in point, I'm not an expert on AIDS/HIV but I do know enough about it to not fear or alienate it's victims. Ron Paul seemed to be speaking as if PTSD sufferers in general are violent ticking-time-bombs who're too dangerous to enjoy a day a target range. His statements remind me a lot of: "He has AIDS. I'm not going to sit near him."

 

[Flying Pig]

[citation needed]

I'll provide his source!

Perhaps too soon, definitely insensitive, but unfortunately, probably a fair point. Mobby, I think you have a point that familiar experiences can help people with mental health issues, but perhaps ones which don't provide such a dangerous mix with the symptoms of PTSD - in this case, a feeling of numbing, occasional extreme violence, and so on - would be better. In this country, sports - including contact sports - are heavily used as therapy, for just that reason.

That said, Bugfatty's very valid point above is noted.

 

[History_Buff]

Is it me or does the public hold really cartoonish ideas about what PTSD is?

That isn't entirely surprising, since so few of us are likely to ever deal with it. I've heard a few times that the reason this generation of soldiers has a particularly bad time of it because there's so few of them. When they have to integrate back into civilian life, there's almost nobody who can accurately relate to them on what it was like. And if the numbers of soldiers returning are low, then the number of civilians who get a close hand experience of PTSD symptoms should also be pretty low.

 

[MobBoss]

Well, I was referencing Ron Paul's statements. I'm not an expert on PTSD or how it effects people I'd consider myself a little more read up on it than the average Joe. Case in point, I'm not an expert on AIDS/HIV but I do know enough about it to not fear or alienate it's victims. Ron Paul seemed to be speaking as if PTSD sufferers in general are violent ticking-time-bombs who're too dangerous to enjoy a day a target range. His statements remind me a lot of: "He has AIDS. I'm not going to sit near him."

Sad thing about that is PTSD sufferers are far more prone to hurt themselves than others.

 

[emzie]

Sad thing about that is PTSD sufferers are far more prone to hurt themselves than others.

That's true of mental illness in general.

 

[Neomega]

Ron Paul clarified. He said basically that this is the result of sending men to war, and that he warned of it, and that there will be more to come.

 

[Neomega]

Well, I was referencing Ron Paul's statements. I'm not an expert on PTSD or how it effects people I'd consider myself a little more read up on it than the average Joe. Case in point, I'm not an expert on AIDS/HIV but I do know enough about it to not fear or alienate it's victims. Ron Paul seemed to be speaking as if PTSD sufferers in general are violent ticking-time-bombs who're too dangerous to enjoy a day a target range.

Not "in general", but there is a small percentage who are. And taking them to a gun range is a stupid way to help with PTSD.

Typical keyboard warrior attempt at projecting bigotry on someone.

I personally know a girl with PTSD. On the fourth of July after she got back, she freaked out.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You dont have to have seen or been in combat to have PTSD form.

You have to have undergone some form of traumatic experience to have "post traumatic stress". Don't you think? Are you claiming that merely being in Iraq is sufficient to have a legitimate case of PTSD? Or are you just engaging in even more sheer speculation as an amateur psychologist with no real experience in this matter?

When do you think the military will finally announce that Routh was officially diagnosed with PTSD?

Well, Form certainly does.

Au contraire. It is you and those who are jumping to absurd conclusions who clearly have the "cartoonish views" regarding PTSD and mental health in general.

That's true of mental illness in general.

Indeed. As the Stars and Stripes article I posted above states, those who suffer from serious mental problems only account for 3-5% of violent crimes. And that apparently includes suicides.

This is why the knee-jerk witch hunt to now "ban" those with mental health issues is so reprehensible. Those who are overly violent and/or have serious emotional problems represent a far greater threat.

 

[amadeus]

Paul, Feb. 5th: As a veteran, I certainly recognize that this weekend's violence and killing of Chris Kyle were a tragic and sad event. My condolences and prayers go out to Mr. Kyle’s family. Unconstitutional and unnecessary wars have endless unintended consequences. A policy of non-violence, as Christ preached, would have prevented this and similar tragedies. -REP

 

[Formaldehyde]

Now would be a good time for Mouthwash and Mobboss to retract their previous statements. But I bet it doesn't occur. They seem to be far too busy deliberately misrepresenting the views of those with whom them merely disagree.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Roberts said it’s hard to know exactly what happened when Kyle brought Routh to a gun range in Erath County. But, Roberts said, he didn’t see any problem with taking veterans with PTSD to events involving weapons.

“We’ve done hunting events, shooting events, fishing events. The guys love it — they love being in that environment,” he said. “The key is being around other warriors and being in an environment where you feel safe to talk about what you’re dealing with.”.

They should take Veterans on a nice overseas trip to places like Afghanistan I hear that it is Romantic !

Most veterans with PTSD carry firearms with them as a result of feeling unsafe, stressed and anxiety ! Of course military suicides are very high at the moment