RtW: Add-On Pack 3 BETA for 3.17

[Dale]

I got the beta3 and the new maps, in Pacific 41, Japan side, couldn't build any factory because I had no good factory but I couldn't build any good factory because of a research requirement not even in my search tree so impossible to research.

Which city? You won't be able to industrialise Manchuria. But the Japanese home islands, and Korea you will be able to.

I wonder if only a map fix can be enough: If a good factory is destroyed by a bomber or something no more factories in the town? I started the Europe 39 map, German side, all towns seem to have a good factory... but if they got destroyed...

Goods factories cannot be destroyed by combat or factory bombing, so this is not an issue.

 

[Dale]

Theres also something else I noticed. Bitter winter only affects your aircraft when bombing units, attacking the defenses/civil/factories won't cause the aircraft to fail the mission due to weather. I noticed this in BETA2, and I don't know if its still in BETA3.

Will be fixed for release. Thanks.

 

[Fagan]

Which city? You won't be able to industrialise Manchuria. But the Japanese home islands, and Korea you will be able to.

You are right few Japan towns can build factories. Interesting option.

This will be the same for any city conquered?

Goods factories cannot be destroyed by combat or factory bombing, so this is not an issue.

Ok, I believed to have quote (in older versions) the lost of some buildings when I lost a town and get it back.

Still about factories :
- I conquered all Polish towns, none have good factory so none will ever build a factory? Why that? Didn't German setup industries in Poland? It's just to be sure it's deliberate, after all playing Germans was a lot too easy in previous versions even at Immortal level.

Some points about the new cultural system:
- I have conquered all Poland cities after one (or 2) turn those close to URSS get glued in URSS culture. In previous versions I had to work a bit to solve the problem. But now there's almost no culture stuff it seems there's no tool to manage that.
- Removing all culture stuff removed the global culture cursor, an important tool to manage happiness. With fascism use more soldier is an option but not cool to lost the culture option. With democracies you won't have the soldier option and will have to put your towns in starvation mode to reduce population. Is the new system really setup for highest levels of difficulty?
- Immediate culture effect during your turn when you are attacking have sometimes unpleasant effects to push back troops attacking, it's weird.
- Why let few culture stuff if they have almost no use? I mean theater, artist specialists. Or is there any use to use artist specialist with so low culture levels?

And just my 2 cents, I don't like a lot the new cultural system I feel the previous was better and was bringing more depth. All complain I read about the previous system was just complain from people who don't know play the game.

 

[Omathaar]

Goods factories cannot be destroyed by combat or factory bombing, so this is not an issue.

I'm playing Global as Germany on Historical, and I've taken all of Poland and mainland France, and half of the main British isle, and not one captured city has a goods factory, not even Paris or London. In the XML for goods factory, there's this:

<iConquestProb>0</iConquestProb>

Shouldn't it be 100? Doesn't this mean goods factories are always destroyed when a city changes hands?

 

[Omathaar]

I think this means I'm pretty much the man took all of France and British Isles and Poland (USSR got none of it, no Vichy on mainland!), all on Deity Historical with no new goods factories! Woot! Okay, I know lots of people could do it, but still I feel cool

 

[Dale]

I'm playing Global as Germany on Historical, and I've taken all of Poland and mainland France, and half of the main British isle, and not one captured city has a goods factory, not even Paris or London. In the XML for goods factory, there's this:

<iConquestProb>0</iConquestProb>

Shouldn't it be 100? Doesn't this mean goods factories are always destroyed when a city changes hands?

Crap! I went the wrong way. Just confirmed it should be 100 by looking at wonders in un-modded BtS buildings file.

 

[VeteranLurker]

Last comments about AI priorities... Open Mode, Global, playing as USSR: both Italy and Japan declared war on me within a couple turns of each other. Japan is also at war with both Chinas and has been for quite some time. Italy also DOW'd UK and France in the same turn. Now, whether these were wise decisions or not, here is the beef -- if they want a war, why are they not building units for one? I have enough espionage points to be able to see both Italy and Japan's cities' defenses and production. One turn after DOW with Italy, I have already taken Tirane (I already had Venice via Yugoslavia as well as all of Eastern Europe), and am one turn from taking Rome. What is Italy building? Worker in Rome (there are no unworked/damaged tiles nearby). Workboat in Genoa, which already has a workboat in port (as well as 3 workers). Airbase in Naples, anti-tank in Palermo, neither of which is anywhere near completion, nor will they ever be able to complete them since they do not have anywhere near enough defense to hold me or even France off. Italian cities in Africa are producing cavalry/artillery because they apparently do not have pressing food/border issues (despite lack of culture effects, Italy and Germany are being swallowed by Russian culture -- It looks like the Cold War with Berlin completely surrounded for 2 squares in all directions, despite my never having fought with Germany). Meanwhile, Japan to their credit did send a big stack at me, but now that that has been destroyed and one of their Chinese cities has fallen to me, I glimpse 2 workers and a settler in the queue in Manchuria. The workers have nothing to do that couldn't wait until more defenders have been built. The settler has nowhere to go, period. Other Japanese cities are building air bases, which might be a good idea under other circumstances, but now that they have no big stack of ground units it would seem unwise.

 

[Chamboozer]

Last comments about AI priorities... Open Mode, Global, playing as USSR: both Italy and Japan declared war on me within a couple turns of each other. Japan is also at war with both Chinas and has been for quite some time. Italy also DOW'd UK and France in the same turn. Now, whether these were wise decisions or not, here is the beef -- if they want a war, why are they not building units for one? I have enough espionage points to be able to see both Italy and Japan's cities' defenses and production. One turn after DOW with Italy, I have already taken Tirane (I already had Venice via Yugoslavia as well as all of Eastern Europe), and am one turn from taking Rome. What is Italy building? Worker in Rome (there are no unworked/damaged tiles nearby). Workboat in Genoa, which already has a workboat in port (as well as 3 workers). Airbase in Naples, anti-tank in Palermo, neither of which is anywhere near completion, nor will they ever be able to complete them since they do not have anywhere near enough defense to hold me or even France off. Italian cities in Africa are producing cavalry/artillerDay because they apparently do not have pressing food/border issues (despite lack of culture effects, Italy and Germany are being swallowed by Russian culture -- It looks like the Cold War with Berlin completely surrounded for 2 squares in all directions, despite my never having fought with Germany). Meanwhile, Japan to their credit did send a big stack at me, but now that that has been destroyed and one of their Chinese cities has fallen to me, I glimpse 2 workers and a settler in the queue in Manchuria. The workers have nothing to do that couldn't wait until more defenders have been built. The settler has nowhere to go, period. Other Japanese cities are building air bases, which might be a good idea under other circumstances, but now that they have no big stack of ground units it would seem unwise.

Dale determined that that's due to the lack of AI factories from the goods factory change. As for the AI's tendancy to warmonger even when they have no chance at all: Its set to aggressive AI as default.

 

[Fagan]

Last comments about AI priorities... Open Mode, Global, playing as USSR...

Strange I tried the Global map, England, Germans, French, none had any good factory so no factories at all.

 

[Fagan]

I think this means I'm pretty much the man took all of France and British Isles and Poland (USSR got none of it, no Vichy on mainland!), all on Deity Historical with no new goods factories! Woot! Okay, I know lots of people could do it, but still I feel cool

Yes this mod is a lot too easy. It's weird that Desert War is much tougher (but a bit too easy too). In general I feel the AI is very very passive in this mod.

That said, not bad, not bad, but at what date you achieved that? About Poland, I also always take all towns. But now with almost no culture stuff, how you give some air to towns near to URSS? They are completely sunk into URSS culture, with previous culture system it only required some works but now.

 

[VeteranLurker]

To me it isn't so much the AI's aggressiveness or passivity, or the lack of factories. It's that the AI prioritizes workers/workboats/settlers over INFANTRY, even when it is at war (regardless of who declared war, obviously). No factories are needed for infantry. It would rather build anti-tank units which take twice as long to build as infantry, same for artillery. As I've said elsewhere, this is a war scenario set in a relatively short time frame, not a typical CIV convert-the-wilderness-into-productive-tiles-to-last-the-ages game. Yes, some workers are needed. Yes, one needs to be able to build workboats to rework pillaged sea resources. But the AI needs some help setting priorities here.

The airbases are troublesome if the AI does not have factories to build air units, and cannot figure out how to airlift units. In my game both Italy and Japan have plenty of fighters, but I do not know if they started with that many or are able to build them somewhere. Still, if the factory exists and I am stuffing their war right back where it came from, they should be thinking about building fighters instead of airbases - if they cannot be convinced to build infantry instead.

I don't recall capturing any goods factories, but I can choose to build them in cities with big enough production if I wish so that doesn't seem to be a problem to me -- at least playing as the USSR, with their big-time production capacity. Otherwise, I'll just build some infantry or spies or infrastructure instead. Not every city needs to be able to churn out tanks and planes (some cities don't even have the capacity to build infantry within a year's time, so why do I need the capacity to build tanks there if it will take like 2 years to complete one?).

BTW: I recall a start-up issue -- bitter winter does not seem to happen in Jan-Mar of 1936 when the scenario starts. Not a problem in Historical or Random, but potentially so in Open since it leaves an unrealistic door open to invade the USSR if one has the huevos to attempt such a thing that early on.

 

[Zulu Impi]

Yes this mod is a lot too easy. It's weird that Desert War is much tougher (but a bit too easy too). In general I feel the AI is very very passive in this mod.

That said, not bad, not bad, but at what date you achieved that? About Poland, I also always take all towns. But now with almost no culture stuff, how you give some air to towns near to URSS? They are completely sunk into URSS culture, with previous culture system it only required some works but now.

It sounds like part of what makes this mod so "easy" is that your using germany try poland or austria if you want a challange. Though the ai can be really passive it sometimes is very strong as well.

 

[Dale]

Or the ultimate challenge, Austria in Open Play.

BTW, don't complain about Germany being easy. It's supposed to be.

 

[Fagan]

It sounds like part of what makes this mod so "easy" is that your using germany try poland or austria if you want a challange. Though the ai can be really passive it sometimes is very strong as well.

The main problem is the extreme passivity it makes the game less fun.

About Poland, I was playing French (Europe 39 Deity level) and at March 40 Poland had still all its towns despite they was in war against Germany and URSS!!!

Austria yes and why not Hungarian? Common seriously is this mod really supposed to be played on nations with zero custom units? I don't think so.

 

[Chamboozer]

Or the ultimate challenge, Austria in Open Play.

BTW, don't complain about Germany being easy. It's supposed to be.

Austria? What about Albania? Now THERE'S a challenge.

 

[Fagan]

Or the ultimate challenge, Austria in Open Play.

BTW, don't complain about Germany being easy. It's supposed to be.

Well it's not that sample. I haven't yet beat Alexander mod (first add on) at Regency level, Desert War mod (Original game) requires care and tuning when played at Emperor level, for most mods of first add on I need play first at Regency or Monarch levels. So I could expect that at Deity level I have more resistance from any side even if some are made to be more easy.

Also more than the true difficulty, it's more a problem of passivity. When playing French, May 40 I have already full air control, Germany is in war with Poland, Norvegian and Denmark, Netherland, I also have the sea control as Germany hasn't anymore any Ship army, I have Freiburg, Stuttgart, Koslin, gave back Dantzig to Poland, have a strong army in Luxembourg, use Copenhagen as my current Air base, put reinforcement in Amsterdam and Bruxelles, all German oil wells are destroyed. The worse is that Germany never took any town but Dantizg during few turns.

At some point I had a wandering army around Freiburg and between Freiburg and Stuttgart but never been attacked.

Ok it's weird that Germany setup a such weak resistance but I admit this try had some fun anyway thanks to surprising Poland defense and I still have to see Italy enter in war, as I hope to not be able to give the Coup de Grace to Germany before Italy enter in war.

It seems that the RtW pack3 have increase AI passivity and beta3 make it worth. So that's the main point, passivity. But also there's the level of difficulty, I feel that at Deity level at any side but at least France, the game should offer more resistance.

 

[Dale]

The AI problems with Beta3 centre around issues with factories. There's problems with those and the AI, which results in the AI having no advanced forces, and no forces available to attack with.

Also, do not compare Alexander and Desert War mods to RtW. They are fully scripted to be hard. RtW is a LOT more open.

For instance, in Desert War it is deliberately scripted so that if A&B happens, then C is given to the AI. I didn't want RtW to suffer the same issues that surround those scripted types of mods (even RFC to some extent is heavily scripted).

Of all the major mods, RtW is easily the most open of them, relying almost entirely on the AI (which since Warlords has been fairly defunct) and not on scripts.

 

[FutureEmperor]

I don't know if this would be possible or not, but it would solve the work boat/worker issue if it is.

How about limiting the amount of workers for each population (sort of like missionaries, give them a 5 pop limit)

As for fishing boats if there was any way to only give a fishing boat to a city that was next to a fish resource, and if there was any way to also check this number against fishing nets. I dunno. just an idea.

 

[Chamboozer]

I don't know if this would be possible or not, but it would solve the work boat/worker issue if it is.

How about limiting the amount of workers for each population (sort of like missionaries, give them a 5 pop limit)

As for fishing boats if there was any way to only give a fishing boat to a city that was next to a fish resource, and if there was any way to also check this number against fishing nets. I dunno. just an idea.

Thats actually a really great idea. Just limit workers and work boats.

 

[Omathaar]

Yeah, why not? And if you can't as easily rebuild destroyed improvements due to limited workers, that makes bombing improvements more realistically hurtful, and it gives motivation to secure multiple oil resources.