Russia and the post-imperial complex

Russia always has been the bad guy (and by Russia I mean their government). The only difference is that now they have plenty of money from oil and gas. Another Cold War has already begun, and it will only get worse, unless we come up with something that makes oil/gas unprofitable.

Cold war in what sense? Certainly not a global undeclared conflict between two superpowers. Russia is a problem, much larger one than, say, Iran, but its power has greatly diminished since 1989. Despite all that oil/gas scare in Western Europe, it can't even effectively use this weapon against the West, not for long, since Russian economy is dependant on steady inflow of Western money.

Regardless of what you may believe the purpose was, I have never before seen someone decrying the industrialization of a mostly agricultural country, as far as the economy is concerned. Germany was agricultural and became industrialized, do you think that made them poorer? And the land is still there, no?

Depends on how it's done. When it happens in an enviroment of free enterprise and market economy, the industrialization in general improves the living standard of the population. On the other hand, when the industrialization is planned to focus on one branch of industry (heavy machinery, steel production etc., simply put the stuff you need to build tanks) while the other, much more needed for everyday life of the citizens, are ignored, the result is an unviable and costly nonsense, a waste of effort. Something like the pyramids, only worse, because the pyramids at least attract tourists, while the abandoned megafactories in Central and Eastern Europe don't.

I don't think you can make a case that those eastern european countries (or central, or whatever) were exploited. East Germany was, but that was a consequence of WW2. The others? By 1989 their territory was wealthier than most of the USSR's, while most had been both poor before WW2 and ravaged by the time it ended.

The fact that DDR and Czechoslovakia were statistically much better off than the USSR does not prove that these countries were not exploited. In fact, it suggests that they were. Their relative economic well-being (I stress the word 'relative') was largely the result of their better managerial skills, comparably less oppressive forms of communism and a significant pre-war development, plus many other factors I won't mention.

Focus more on what I said earlier. The economy of the satellite states was deliberately focused on certain branch of industry (decided by the Comecon, thus the USSR). For example DDR and Czechoslovakia produced consumer goods for most of the Eastern Bloc because that's what they were (relatively) good at. Despite that, many 5 year plans mostly focused on heavy industry and coal production, ignoring the needs for more and better consumer goods. The goal was clearly to sustain the high levels of Soviet military production.

It's I think comparable in a sense with the Western colonial policy in Africa - the only industries which were developed were related to extraction of natural resources in which the Westerners were interested.

I do not consider Georgia, or even Ukraine any longer, to be viable independent nations. They will become part of "Russia" (some enlarged russian federation) again, both history and geography push them that way.

Well, for most of their modern history, these lands have been trying to get out of Russia. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea are certainly debatable, but the Central and Western Ukraine would be violently opposed to the idea. Also, I see your willingness to sacrifice 50 million people as a bit disturbing. The EU certainly seems to be interested in Ukraine, much more so than in the case of Georgia.

As for Georgia, it's relatively good economic development so far suggests otherwise. We'll see if that continues after the war. The West certainly don't seem to have any other honorable option than to support it.

There was perhaps a chance of building a single eurasian union of independent states, after the implosion of the USSR. Or at least of setting the border between a western european and an eurasian (russian) space further east, and do so in a friendly way. Now it seems to have been wasted, because of some leaders who postured too much and ignored the realities on the terrain.

Perhaps if the Russian government had adopted a sensible post-colonial policy, it would have looked differently. Unfortunately Russia had enough of its own problems back then, and since these problems led to a formation of full-fledged authoritarian regime, I don't see any room for improvement in the future. The Moscow regime is certainly not interested in fair cooperation on equal-to-equal basis with its former "colonies".

Also, the competition from the EU, which has so much more to offer, is simply too hard to overcome without the use of other means - like military force.
 
Naturally I'll be attacked by lots of apologists (and of course Russians) for this post, and I'll probably be reported, but thus is nevertheless the truth.

Hi, I'm Russian apologist, may I attack you please? :)

It's hard to blame them when their media is state-run, their elections are not free, and they are constantly told about Western conspiracies. And of course I don't mean this as a personal attack on any one person or a categorical statement on the malignancy of an entire nation's population—there are plenty of smart, informed Russians. Still, if people are posting on CFC, surely they have access to real news agencies through the internet.

Can you answer, how many TV channels are available for example, for people in Moscow? How many of them are controlled by state, not controlled by state, not Russian at all? I'm not asking about exact numbers of course, but approximate, from your point of view?
The same question for newspapers, give your estimations?

About elections, how do you think, what was the real rating of Putin and Medvedev, when they were elected? If you meant other elections, votes of which person/party were falsificated?
 
innonimatu said:
I don't think you can make a case that those eastern european countries (or central, or whatever) were exploited. East Germany was, but that was a consequence of WW2. The others? By 1989 their territory was wealthier than most of the USSR's, while most had been both poor before WW2 and ravaged by the time it ended.

Are you.... serious?
 
Hi, I'm Russian apologist, may I attack you please? :)

Only because you asked nicely!

Can you answer, how many TV channels are available for example, for people in Moscow? How many of them are controlled by state, not controlled by state, not Russian at all? I'm not asking about exact numbers of course, but approximate, from your point of view?
The same question for newspapers, give your estimations?

I have no idea, but my understanding is that the Russian media is by and large controlled by the state. I've heard several stories of journalists being murdered and there being significant suspicions of government involvement. I don't mean that the Russian press is entirely state-run... I apologize if that is the sentiment I conveyed, since that is essentially what I said. My point was that freedom of the press does not seem to exist in Russia.

About elections, how do you think, what was the real rating of Putin and Medvedev, when they were elected? If you meant other elections, votes of which person/party were falsificated?

Elections are not fair when the opposition can hardly organize itself into a coherent effort.
 
What really disgusts me is the degree to which Russian propaganda seems to be working.

What disgusts me is the degree to which Western propaganda seems to be working. There are people that actually believe Russia is at fault for what has happened in Georgia. That alone shows the absurd effectiveness of the propaganda machine.

I have no idea, but my understanding is that the Russian media is by and large controlled by the state. ...SNIP... I don't mean that the Russian press is entirely state-run...

*looks at CBC - Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the major media outlet that is controlled by the federal government*

Hmm... state-run. Oh, crap, it's the same in Canada! Run for your lives!
 
I have no idea, but my understanding is that the Russian media is by and large controlled by the state. I've heard several stories of journalists being murdered and there being significant suspicions of government involvement. I don't mean that the Russian press is entirely state-run... I apologize if that is the sentiment I conveyed, since that is essentially what I said. My point was that freedom of the press does not seem to exist in Russia.

It's true that a few Russian central TV channels are controlled by state. A few. True is also that information from other sources is available to any Russian citizen. Did you know this? If not, how do you think, why?

Elections are not fair when the opposition can hardly organize itself into a coherent effort.

Russia has opposition party with quite significant rating. It's CPRF, communists.
I can give you idea why Russian propaganda is so successful amongst Russian people. Sometimes it's enough to show people what Western TV and newspapers are writing about us. Britain newspaper on a first day of Russian-Georgian conflict published picture with Georgian MRL shelling Ossetian capital, and header "Russia attacks Georgia" (I can find exact words, if you need).
One more example from Germany:
l1048752875.jpg

Picture - Ossetian hospital with wounded people after Georgian attack.
Text - "Putin - bloody bomb revenge".

This is only two examples of many.
Why your free media is lying about my country? Why we should believe your TV if they constantly abuse us, no matter what we are doing, good or bad? Should we believe you are not against us, if we constantly hear from you that we are bloody imperialists and want to invade everything?
 
The fact that you ruined your own economy worse than theirs doesn't mean you didn't ruin theirs nonetheless. Compare Romania to Western European nations.

"You ruined your economy"? I believe my avatar may be inducing you in error. You'd be hard pressed to find someone more western in continental Europe than me!
Actually it is funny, as the bear is intended as a comment on the economy... :lol:
 
I don't think you can make a case that those eastern european countries (or central, or whatever) were exploited. East Germany was, but that was a consequence of WW2.

The people of "eastern europe" were not exploited?.. during the cold war?

What happened to their rights, then? Why take away people's rights, if you're not going to exploit them?

The Soviets did that just for kicks, right?
 
What happened to their rights, then? Why take away people's rights, if you're not going to exploit them?

The Soviets did that just for kicks, right?

I've already given my opinion on why they did it, and can easily repeat it here: for political and military reasons. It was an imperial occupation, no doubt. What I argued was that they failed to explore them economically, with the exception of Germany. Eastern Europe wasn't known for its wealth, even before falling on the soviet side of the cold war. And WW2 left it in ruins.
 
I've already given my opinion on why they did it, and can easily repeat it here: for political and military reasons. It was an imperial occupation, no doubt. What I argued was that they failed to explore them economically, with the exception of Germany. Eastern Europe wasn't known for its wealth, even before falling on the soviet side of the cold war. And WW2 left it in ruins.

And as I explained, that view is simplistic and wrong.

1) As far as Eastern Germany and Czechoslovakia are concerned, these coutries had fully developed economies by contemporary (pre-WW2) standards. Both Germany and Czechoslovakia were in the top ten of the world's most industrialized countries before the war. Czechoslovakia suffered relatively minor damage during the war, so you can't really blame WW2 for its economic decline during communist rule.

2) Despite the fact that Poland, Hungary and other countries were not exactly the richest countries in Europe, especially after the end of WW2, they were, on average, still better off than the Soviet Union, in which poverty existed on a scale unimaginable anywhere West of Königsberg-Bucharest line. Bucharest itself, when we're at it, was called "Paris of the East" or something like that.

3) Soviet Union was an exception among imperialist countries, because it wasn't giving a damn about the welfare of its citizens, except the very narrow communist oligarchy. The sole goal and purpose of the Soviet economy was to put up with the military-industrial production of the United States. Because the Soviet economy was at least (initially) 8 times smaller, you can see how difficult that was. They simply sacrificed most of other production, in order to build tanks, fighter planes and rockets for their nukes. The satellite states were needed to sustain this. Most of them supplied USSR with steel, machines, agricultural products, simply put, it was up to the satellite states to supply Soviet citizens with necessary consumer goods. In return, the satellite states received oil, natural gas, all kinds of weapons and military equipment and more raw materials to produce more quality goods for the Soviet Union. Ironically enough, they outsourced the production into Central Europe :)


-> The whole point is, that this whole structure wasn't benefiting the satellite states. They were essentially big factories, with raw materials and orders flowing in from the USSR and products going to the USSR with very little in return. Soviets were fortunately clever enough to realize, that the citizens in Hungary, DDR, Poland or Czechoslovakia were simply not used to such an extreme poverty which existed in the USSR and would not work under such conditions and therefore they had to allow the local rulers to maintain a better living standard there in order to keep the good stuff coming.

This is the reason why they were relatively richer than the Soviets, despite being economically exploited for 40 years.
 
Russia is not authoritarian.

Russia is authoritarian by its very nature. For decisive majority of Russian people, liberalism, democracy, and absence of very a strong and tough leader will, as a first thing, give nightmares about chaos, disorder, and entire Russia falling apart or getting torn into pieces and ripped off by oligarchs and external enemies.
To generalize a little bit, Russia has been an absolutist monarchy or totalitarian regime from the fall of Novgorod till the fall of USSR. It has always required strong, authoritarian leadership to be successful and that is what most of its people believe it actually needs. Mere 20 years has no way changed that sentiment, if anything this has grown stronger. To believe otherwise is just wishful thinking. After all, democracies of the West took WAY longer to take root. And the larger a country, the slower any change comes...

Today's Russia has, imho, no meaningful opposition to ruling party. It has just dissidents.
EDIT: except for, perhaps, Communist Party - which hardly changes my point.

There were other parts of your post I disagree with, but I'll drop these for now.
 
Disagree.



BS in form of Russophobe rant. (And Russia must understand how the West has always behaved, right? RIGHT.)

Otherwise :sleep:

Pretty much sums it up. Another anti-Russia two minutes hate from Winner. Next!
 
Exactly, Yeekim. This is something the Westerners must understand first if they want to understand Russia as a whole.

I'd add that the chaos in the early 1990's has to a large degree discredited liberal democracy as an alternative to authoritarian rule in the eyes of ordinary Russians.

There was an disillusion in other post-soviet countries, but most of them managed to overcome this phase without giving up on democracy. The pro-democratic forces in Central European, Baltic and Southern states were strong enough. In Russia, where authoritarian rule is something of a standard, the population simply demanded return to the well.tried system of government the Russian people were used to, instead of trying to "repair" the democracy.

The result is Vladimir Putin and his people ruling in Russia.
 
I, too, think that the problem is the legacy of Soviet Union. AFAIK "the grand victory over nazism" or whatever Russians call it was the defining point in Russian history, thus it is hard for Russians to admit that the Soviet Union has done some horrible things in its time. What in my opinion is alarming is that Russians don't seem to be able to accept their past which leads to s**t like this:

I don't think you can make a case that those eastern european countries (or central, or whatever) were exploited.

Or comments about how the collapse of the Soviet Union was "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century.

If Russians can't accept their past and instead hold their nationalistic BS, I'm afraid history might repeat itself.

Seeing how Russia (/Soviet Union) has been, and still is, a dangerous neighbour, it's no wonder eastern European countries want to join the NATO. As Russia is attacking its neighbours, it just makes them want to join NATO even more. I, too, agree with Winner: Russians have to let go of those countries. The Russian aggression is just going to make Russia even less popular in its former sphere of influence, meaning Russia will have even less political influence in these areas.
 
Okay, allow me to destroy your flimsy argument and in doing so expose the anti-Russia hatred that it thinly veils.

1) As far as Eastern Germany and Czechoslovakia are concerned, these coutries had fully developed economies by contemporary (pre-WW2) standards. Both Germany and Czechoslovakia were in the top ten of the world's most industrialized countries before the war. Czechoslovakia suffered relatively minor damage during the war, so you can't really blame WW2 for its economic decline during communist rule.

Relatively minor damage? BS! Per Capita GDP in Czechoslovakia fell by more than 30% during the war. And by 1950, Per Capita GDP in Communist Czechoslovakia already exceeded it's previous all time high! By 1989, Per Capita GDP was about four times as high as it was prior to World War Two.

So yeah, you lose this one bucko.

2) Despite the fact that Poland, Hungary and other countries were not exactly the richest countries in Europe, especially after the end of WW2, they were, on average, still better off than the Soviet Union, in which poverty existed on a scale unimaginable anywhere West of Königsberg-Bucharest line. Bucharest itself, when we're at it, was called "Paris of the East" or something like that.

In 1938, Per Capita GDP in Poland was just $52 high than in the Soviet Union.

But you're ignoring one huge and obvious reality, and ignoring it simply for the sake of maintaining your anti-Russia hatred. At the time, the Soviet Union was industrializing, other countries were already industrialized. The Soviet Union started with what Imperial Russia left them (ie. nothing) and had to industrialize rapidly. Indeed by the end of the 1930s, Per Capita GDP was roughly the same as in other countries in Europe, which is quite a feat when you consider what they started with and how far they had to come.

To overlook this is stupid.

3) Soviet Union was an exception among imperialist countries, because it wasn't giving a damn about the welfare of its citizens, except the very narrow communist oligarchy. The sole goal and purpose of the Soviet economy was to put up with the military-industrial production of the United States. Because the Soviet economy was at least (initially) 8 times smaller, you can see how difficult that was. They simply sacrificed most of other production, in order to build tanks, fighter planes and rockets for their nukes. The satellite states were needed to sustain this. Most of them supplied USSR with steel, machines, agricultural products, simply put, it was up to the satellite states to supply Soviet citizens with necessary consumer goods. In return, the satellite states received oil, natural gas, all kinds of weapons and military equipment and more raw materials to produce more quality goods for the Soviet Union. Ironically enough, they outsourced the production into Central Europe :)

Yeah, the Soviet Union didn't give a damn about its citizens, that must be why it had free universal health care, free education at all levels, free child care, free basic cost items, subsidized low cost housing, extremely cheap public transit, etc.

That must be why some of the Germans who danced on the wall in 1989 are now the very same people disillusioned with all the welfares they lost. They're not Gypsies, so I don't know why you ignore them.


-> The whole point is, that this whole structure wasn't benefiting the satellite states. They were essentially big factories, with raw materials and orders flowing in from the USSR and products going to the USSR with very little in return. Soviets were fortunately clever enough to realize, that the citizens in Hungary, DDR, Poland or Czechoslovakia were simply not used to such an extreme poverty which existed in the USSR and would not work under such conditions and therefore they had to allow the local rulers to maintain a better living standard there in order to keep the good stuff coming.

This is the reason why they were relatively richer than the Soviets, despite being economically exploited for 40 years.

Again, economies in all Eastern European states expanded dramatically during the Cold War. You are simply lying.
 
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