[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine--Act 3: Ride of the Valkyries

[Gorbles]

so I just accept decision made and consequences of sanctions which followed as a result.

Sorry for jumping in, but this is simply untrue. You were the one highlighting the impact of the sanctions in the first place. Arguing that they were unreasonable and that Russians were being turned against the West because of it.

That's not acceptance.

 

[Snorrius]

Sorry for jumping in, but this is simply untrue. You were the one highlighting the impact of the sanctions in the first place. Arguing that they were unreasonable and that Russians were being turned against the West because of it.

That's not acceptance.

I accept it as a part of reality I have to bear up with. I might not like a shower rain when I am outside, I might even express my displeasure, but it is clear it is a reality to bear with. On the other side, it does not contradict to EU being unreasonable, but again, certainly, I can not change what EU or USA elites would do. They are unreasonable, I voice my opinion, but I accept they are what they are.

 

[Sarin]

If you ask me as a private person, then I have no influence on actual decision-making of Russian government, so I just accept decision made and consequences of sanctions which followed as a result. If anyone expect I will "rise" and go to the streets to oust Putin from power because some dudes somewhere do not like Russians, then one really should not. Even if it would make some middle-aged guys thousands miles away love me, I doubt risking my life and serving years in prison really worth it.

Alone, your influence might be very little, but together with other people, you can change your country and remove those responsible from power.

 

[uppi]

If you ask me as a private person, then I have no influence on actual decision-making of Russian government, so I just accept decision made and consequences of sanctions which followed as a result. If anyone expect I will "rise" and go to the streets to oust Putin from power because some dudes somewhere do not like Russians, then one really should not. Even if it would make some middle-aged guys thousands miles away love me, I doubt risking my life and serving years in prison really worth it.

I am not expecting you to risk your life, I am expecting you to stop your active support of a fascist regime while sounding like a fascist.

Unless you want to tell me that not being a fascist is now a criminal offense in Russia

 

[Snorrius]

Alone, your influence might be very little, but together with other people, you can change your country and remove those responsible from power.

And what will I get as a result? Now I have one of the best governments Russia had for last hundred years. Revolution, as experience shows, will bring at least decade of chaos and poverty. I lived though 90s - thanks but no thanks. And look at the Ukrainians. In 2014 they thought they will get prosperity if they remove those responsible from power. What they got is a civil war and Russian intervention. And for which goal I should do this? To oust Putin because he caused some annoyance to USA? That's ludicrous. If someone wants to oust Putin out of power, he should do it himself and not rely on Snorrius.

 

[Broken_Erika]

About corruption and witch-hunting.

Questions Remain About Ukrainian Leadership Despite Western Favor

Despite Western nations showing great favor to Ukraine and its leadership amid the ongoing invasion of Russia, several questions remain.

thefederalist.com

The federalist is not a trustworthy news source, it makes fox news look impartial.

 

[Sarin]

And what I get as a result? Now I have one of the best governments Russia had for last hundred years. Revolution, as experience shows, will bring at least decade of chaos and poverty. I lived though 90s - thanks but no thanks. And look at the Ukrainians. In 2014 they thought they will get prosperity if they remove those responsible from power. What they got is a civil war and Russian intervention. And for which goal? To oust Putin because he caused annoyance to USA? That's ludicrous. If someone want to ouse Putin out of power, he should do it himself and not rely on Snorrius.

What happened in 2014 to Ukraine was your government's doing. Had they been left alone, things might have been quite different.

You should oust Putin because he's driving Russia down the same hole that Hitler drove Germany. Expansion and power grab via war. That's what the promised "return to good old days" means. When he said he'll restore the Soviet sphere of influence, it was a direct threat to me, because I'm Czech, my grandparents lived through the brutal 50's and my parents grew up during the 1968 invasion and aftermath. To me, and to everyone in the former Soviet sphere of influence, he promises the return of that.

So if he stays on this course, things will get much worse for Russia, not because he's annoyance to USA, but because he's a direct threat to large part of Europe. And Russian people will have to suffer consequences of his actions. That's the course they've chosen when they supported him.

 

[red_elk]

The federalist is not a trustworthy news source, it makes fox news look impartial.

It refers to several articles from NYT and Reuters.

 

[saamohod]

"Siege mentality is a shared feeling of victimization and defensiveness—a term derived from the actual experience of military defences of real sieges. It is a collective state of mind in which a group of people believe themselves constantly attacked, oppressed, or isolated in the face of the negative intentions of the rest of the world."

Classic.

 

[keli]

I accept it as a part of reality I have to bear up with. I might not like a shower rain when I am outside, I might even express my displeasure, but it is clear it is a reality to bear with. On the other side, it does not contradict to EU being unreasonable, but again, certainly, I can not change what EU or USA elites would do. They are unreasonable, I voice my opinion, but I accept they are what they are.

As the average Russian citizen has zero agency in his/her own country, then why should the West care about your wellbeing when it is aimed at stopping the Russian warmachine by hitting the economy? The poorer you are the less possibility you have to arm yourselves. It just doesn't matter whether you like the US/EU or not. Your opinion bears no weight in Russia. If there was even a glimmer of hope that you would protest against Putin and stop this madness internally, then perhaps sanctions affecting the populace wouldn't be so harsh. Unfortunately, as you stated above, you have no interest to voice your dissatisfaction with the war, so why should we prioritise your wellbeing over keeping the Ukrainian state and its people alive?

If you ask me, the decoupling from Russia should have started in 2014 (Looking at you Germany). This will be more painful now, but still necessary.

Regardless, the Russians living in the West are not treated as secondary citizens, feel free to come and see. Of course if you are loudly supporting the anihilation of Ukrainians, then you will be dealt with just like fascists and nazis are dealt with.

 

[keli]

"Siege mentality is a shared feeling of victimization and defensiveness—a term derived from the actual experience of military defences of real sieges. It is a collective state of mind in which a group of people believe themselves constantly attacked, oppressed, or isolated in the face of the negative intentions of the rest of the world."

Classic.

Can confirm. Orban uses the same tactics to cling to power. Classic Putinist move. In the age of information I don't know how this can work, especially among the more educated.

 

[REDY]

And what will I get as a result? Now I have one of the best governments Russia had for last hundred years. Revolution, as experience shows, will bring at least decade of chaos and poverty. I lived though 90s - thanks but no thanks. And look at the Ukrainians. In 2014 they thought they will get prosperity if they remove those responsible from power. What they got is a civil war and Russian intervention. And for which goal I should do this? To oust Putin because he caused some annoyance to USA? That's ludicrous. If someone wants to oust Putin out of power, he should do it himself and not rely on Snorrius.

We experienced 90s too. Russia is becoming less and less competitive and suprisingly its since Putin returned to the President office and started tighten screws.
For me is really interesting question if it is because he invested that much to occupy Ukraine or is Ukraine designed as enemy to hide the stagnation.

 

[Snorrius]

As the average Russian citizen has zero agency in his/her own country, then why should the West care about your wellbeing when it is aimed at stopping the Russian warmachine by hitting the economy?

The West never had such an obligation to care about wellbeing of Russians and never did. And that's fine. Russians, in general, do not care about well-being of Europeans as well and, certainly, do not particularly lament European price hikes because of energy shortage.

If you ask me, the decoupling from Russia should have started in 2014 (Looking at you Germany). This will be more painful now, but still necessary.

We are on the same page here. Prosperity of European countries and European Union was fundamentally based on cheap resources from Soviet Union and Russia after its fall. As Russia now has not economic problems Soviet Union had (it can not grow enough food etc because of substandard economic policy), and there is not much we can buy for euros anyway, this charity has to stop.

 

[keli]

The West never had such an obligation to care about wellbeing of Russians and never did. And that's fine. Russians, in general, do not particularly care about well-being Europeans and, certainly, do not particularly lament European price hikes because of energy shortage.

We are on the same page here. Prosperity of European countries and European Union was fundamentally based on cheap resources from Soviet Union and Russia after its fall. As Russia now has not economic problems Soviet Union had (it can not grow enough food etc because of substandard economic policy), and there is not much we can buy for euros anyway, this charity has to stop.

Here we are, we agree on something Although you would think that cooperation is still more beneficial than building a new iron curtain. But then again, for this, peace is a prerequisite.

"Fundamentally based on". Love it. Like the only reson why the EU is the largest economy in the world and one of the best places to live in is because of Russian energy. Yeah... You had Russian cheap energy all the time and even have it now, why is your country still low on gdp/capita?

Also, you were not a charity, you were selling energy for your own benefit and meanwhile you also built up political leverage in the process. You were lucky in a sense that the Germans believed you would not abuse this relationship and you value your own economy much more than to throw it away by starting a war in Europe. Well, we on the East always knew they were wrong and now we are paying the price. But it's a price worth paying.

When this ends the only thing you will have left are food and energy. Welcome to the 20th century again.

Literally you only had to do one thing and one thing only to be part of the international community. Not start wars. But here we are in 2022.

 

[EvaDK]

Prosperity of European countries and European Union was fundamentally based on cheap resources from Soviet Union and Russia after its fall. As Russia now has not economic problems Soviet Union had (it can not grow enough food etc because of substandard economic policy), and there is not much we can buy for euros anyway, this charity has to stop.

Modern Europe owes its prosperity to three factors above anything else;

1. the Marshall Aid program post-WW2 rebuilding and investing in Western Europe
2. the formation of the 1951 European Coal & Steel Community, which evolved into the European Union.
3. the collapse of the USSR liberated Eastern European nations to pursue their own future; many of these eventually joined the EU and experienced significantly higher economic growth as a result. As an example, the GDP per capita in the three Baltic states Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are today almost double the GDP per capita of Russia.

The EU has more trade measured in value with Switzerland, than it has with Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_European_Union

 

[saamohod]

Literally you only had to do one thing and one thing only to be part of the international community. Not start wars.

"The Scorpion and the Frog", a fable from Russia:

A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I am sorry, but I couldn't resist the urge. It's in my nature."

​

 

[Gorbles]

I accept it as a part of reality I have to bear up with. I might not like a shower rain when I am outside, I might even express my displeasure, but it is clear it is a reality to bear with. On the other side, it does not contradict to EU being unreasonable, but again, certainly, I can not change what EU or USA elites would do. They are unreasonable, I voice my opinion, but I accept they are what they are.

You might even express displeasure? But are you?

I understand not wanting to risk jail, even though others have. That's definitely not something I'd ask of a stranger online. But asking you to give an opinion seems fair enough.

 

[Snorrius]

You might even express displeasure? But are you?

Ranting is not my strong side, but here it is: because of sanctions I had to change my Mastercard to Mir on Aliexpress, and I no longer can pay for games on Steam (theoretically, I can set up a payment card in Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan, but it is a hassle).

I understand not wanting to risk jail, even though others have. That's definitely not something I'd ask of a stranger online. But asking you to give an opinion seems fair enough.

I actually gave a lot of opinions already. What exactly you would like me to comment on? (I saw your previous post, I will try to address it tomorrow).

 

[Gorbles]

Ranting is not my strong side, but here it is: because of sanctions I had to change my Mastercard to Mir on Aliexpress, and I no longer can pay for games on Steam (theoretically, I can set up a payment card in Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan, but it is a hassle).

My bad, I got mixed up on what displeasure we were talking about. Anything else I could add to this right now is in my other post you've noted already.

 

[Sarin]

"The Scorpion and the Frog", a fable from Russia:

A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I am sorry, but I couldn't resist the urge. It's in my nature."

​

Rather harsh, but one has to wonder. Russia has resources in its disposal to become superpower on its own, without needing to subjugate other countries. Yet time and again it chooses oppression, corruption and aggression.