Russia's chief Rabbi defends Red Army

[RedRalph]

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100126/157684758.html

Russia's chief rabbi called on Tuesday Ukraine's views on World War Two "false and distorted" after Kiev posthumously honored a nationalist accused by Russia of Nazi collaboration.

Outgoing Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko recently awarded the honorary title of national hero to Stepan Bandera, whose Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists briefly allied with Nazi Germany during the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union.

The Soviet authorities accused Bandera, who fought both the Nazis and the Soviets in his quest for an independent Ukraine, of numerous acts of murder and terrorism and authorized his assassination by the KGB in Munich, Germany, on October 15, 1959.

"Unfortunately, what we see in Ukraine is terrifying. This is unacceptable for us," Berl Lazar said during a meeting with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

"We Jews will never forget what the Red Army did for us in World War Two," he went on.

Russian leaders have said that they are committed to fighting attempts to revise the history of World War Two, when the Red Army played the key role in defeating Nazi Germany.

Putin said he kept close track on debates over "the distortion of history and Holocaust denial."

Undoubtedly, the USSR did not have a perfect record on treatment of Jews. But how would you evaluate the relationship overall?

 

[Masada]

Undoubtedly, the USSR did not have a perfect record on treatment of Jews. But how would you evaluate the relationship overall?

Immeasurably-better-than-the-Nazis.

 

[REDY]

I think that here we agree on.

I only want make note that UPA=Teh NAZISTS is not completely fair. I would never support decoration of Bandera though and consider Ukrainian military resistence quite problematic.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Outgoing Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko recently awarded the honorary title of national hero to Stepan Bandera, whose Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists briefly allied with Nazi Germany during the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union.

That'd be Yushchenko's parting shot.

Seriously, I can't decide what's worse - fervent Ukrainian nationalism or fervent Russian nationalism. I don't think that Bandera's on the same moral level with Nazi Germany, too, but I agree with the sentiment that glorifying him is a Bad Thing.

Same applies to the glorifiers of pro-Nazi nationalists in the Baltic countries.

 

[Verbose]

Immeasurably-better-than-the-Nazis.

For sure, but the issue here seems rather that the USSR had far better relations with the Jewish community than various Ukranian nationalists.

 

[Masada]

For sure, but the issue here seems rather that the USSR had far better relations with the Jewish community than various Ukranian nationalists.

The use of the word overall would seem to imply a more general statement than that.

 

[REDY]

This wikipedia article is relevant to question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lviv_pogroms_controversy_(1941)

 

[Yeekim]

Seriously, I can't decide what's worse - fervent Ukrainian nationalism or fervent Russian nationalism.

There is no difference. Except, perhaps, that Russian nationalism is potentially more dangerous since there are more Russians than Ukrainians.

I don't think that Bandera's on the same moral level with Nazi Germany, too, but I agree with the sentiment that glorifying him is a Bad Thing.

Agreed, but if anyone should be pissed about it, shouldn't it be the Poles?

 

[RedRalph]

Even if it isn't, I'm sure the Pole swill be pissed and resentful, it's their national pastime.

 

[Dragonlord]

Undoubtedly, the USSR did not have a perfect record on treatment of Jews. But how would you evaluate the relationship overall?

Immeasurably-better-than-the-Nazis.

That seems to be a given - how could anyone have a worse relationship with the Jews than the Nazis?

Quite a few of the Russian leadership were Jews, especially in the revolutionary beginning - probably because of their mistreatment under the Tsars. Enough so, that Hitler ranted on and on about the "Jewish-Bolshevik" conspiracy.

I'd say that, overall, Jews were treated much as anyone else in the USSR - which isn't saying much, under Stalin at least. Being sent to a gulag for being 'bourgeois' instead of race probably wasn't much fun, either... or outright purged, for that matter.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I'd say that, overall, Jews were treated much as anyone else in the USSR - which isn't saying much, under Stalin at least. Being sent to a gulag for being 'bourgeois' instead of race probably wasn't much fun, either... or outright purged, for that matter.

There had been "a healthy amount" of antisemitism post-WWII and before Stalin's death.

There is no difference. Except, perhaps, that Russian nationalism is potentially more dangerous since there are more Russians than Ukrainians.

Well, Ukrainian one has more of a persecution complex...

 

[Bill3000]

Seriously, I can't decide what's worse - fervent Ukrainian nationalism or fervent Russian nationalism.

Russian, because they're the ones with the nukes?

 

[red_elk]

Agreed, but if anyone should be pissed about it, shouldn't it be the Poles?

Let Russians and Jews to be concerned about Nazi glorification in neighboring countries too. Not only Poles have such privilege.

 

[Yeekim]

Let Russians and Jews to be concerned about Nazi glorification in neighboring countries too. Not only Poles have such privilege.

Except that you can't call Bandera "Nazi" by any stretch of imagination.
He was Ukrainian nationalist who employed some pretty despicable tactics, most notably ethnic cleansing of Poles, but he was not a Nazi.

On June 30, 1941, OUN(B) announced a Ukrainian independent state in Lviv - state which "will work closely with the National-Socialist Greater Germany, under the leadership of its leader Adolf Hitler which is forming a new order in Europe and the world" - as stated at the text of the "Act of Proclamation of Ukrainian Statehood".[13] [14].

However, after the German troops crossed the Dnieper River in September 1941, Hitler decided there was no need in establishing a Ukrainian state. [15] [16]. On July 5, Bandera was placed under house arrest in Krakow and on the next day transported to Berlin. He was ordered to stop his armed activities by the OUN(B) and recall the "Act of June the 30th, 1941", which he refused. Bandera with Stetsko, deputy chief of the OUN-B, who came to Berlin after Bandera's arrest and both arrested, and on September 15, 1941 placed to the central Berlin prison and, in January 1942, transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack Zellenbau, where he still maintained contacts with the General Government.[17] Bandera's brothers were taken to Auschwitz concentration camp, where they were killed.

In 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B soured to the point where a Nazi document dated November 25, 1941 stated that "... the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be liquidated..." [19].

True, he initially collaborated with them, but so did, for instance, USSR.

EDIT: What I really wanted to say is that I agree with people who say: "look, he sure was Ukrainian patriot, but because his movement ethnically cleansed tens of thousands of people, it is quite distasteful to award him with titles like these." I don't agree with people who say: "Ukraine twists history, Bandera was but a Nazi!!" There are enough legitimate accusations against him, no need to invent things.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Russian, because they're the ones with the nukes?

Sure, Russian one is more dangerous . I meant, which one is conceptually worse. I guess Russian one still comes on top - it's more aggressively expansionist, while the Ukrainian one is just more whiny.

 

[REDY]

Czechs are generaly whiny too and nobody belives in anything. We are generation without any values. I dont know if nationalism, religion or some ideology isnt needed for proper working of state.
Russians who love Putin at least have some interest in state and motivation to improve it. We are just watching these corrupted politicans, making effort in politics only on things where is our personal interest...is better wrong concept or no concept?

 

[red_elk]

Except that you can't call Bandera "Nazi" by any stretch of imagination.
He was Ukrainian nationalist who employed some pretty despicable tactics, most notably ethnic cleansing of Poles, but he was not a Nazi.

Formally, neither Shukhevich nor Bandera were not Nazis, as they apparently were not members of NSDAP.
In fact, if they participated in ethnic cleansings of Jews and Poles, supported by Nazis - I wouldn't hesitate to call them Nazi too.
Though I can understand why Baltic states prefer to consider such things from very formal point of view.

And again, I don't see why this should be only Polish concern. Quite the opposite, official Poland most likely won't say anything on this matter. Some of free democratic countries are not allowed to criticize other ones.

 

[Masada]

That seems to be a given - how could anyone have a worse relationship with the Jews than the Nazis?

Ukrainian nationalists were complicit in their own massacres and pogroms quite independent of the Nazis and they didn't even have the illusion of ideology to hide behind. And I wouldn't rule out the militant glee that some nationalist groups took to the Jews with, Ustache and whatnot.

Sure, Russian one is more dangerous . I meant, which one is conceptually worse. I guess Russian one still comes on top - it's more aggressively expansionist, while the Ukrainian one is just more whiny.

You have no idea how much I love the EU for potentially sublimating all the whiny Europeans into one horribly whiny state.

Russians who love Putin at least have some interest in state and motivation to improve it. We are just watching these corrupted politicans, making effort in politics only on things where is our personal interest...is better wrong concept or no concept?

The world is boring without strongmen. They at least makes world affairs interesting...

 

[Yeekim]

Formally, neither Shukhevich nor Bandera were not Nazis, as they apparently were not members of NSDAP.

Formally, neither Churchill nor Roosevelt were Communists (courtesy of grammar Nazis: don't use double negative) as they apparently were not members of a Communist party.

In fact, if they participated in ethnic cleansings of Jews and Poles, supported by Nazis - I wouldn't hesitate to call them Nazi too.

In fact, if they participated in war against Nazi Germany, supported by Communists - I wouldn't hesitate to call them Communists too.

Though I can understand why most rational people prefer to consider such things from a different point of view.

Some of free democratic countries are not allowed to criticize other ones.

Who forbids it?

 

[red_elk]

Formally, neither Churchill nor Roosevelt were Communists (courtesy of grammar Nazis: don't use double negative) as they apparently were not members of a Communist party.In fact, if they participated in war against Nazi Germany, supported by Communists - I wouldn't hesitate to call them Communists too.

Wrong logic - I didn't call Nazis everybody who participated in a war on Axis side - Japan, for example.
Those people who participated in ethnic cleansings (inspired and supported by Nazis), or voluntary joined criminal organizations closely related to NSDAP, such as SS, are equivalent to Nazis themselves. No?

Who forbids it?

Those who are interested in Ukrainian nationalism, bad relations between Ukraine and Russia and occasional problems with gas import for EU.