Russia's Top Terrorist Killed

[Pyrite]

"Fight against Russians? Yes, they deserve it, but killing innocent children? That's barbarism."

I'm all for a people's right to self determination.
I'm wary about it when the people in question blow up schools.

Shoot soldiers! It's better PR!

 

[Winner]

He was a bad man with a legitimate goal - Freedom for his people !

Ok, it is more likely he wants a maffia-state, but he certainly wants no more Russians in his country.

So, Osama is also a bad man with a legitimate goal?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I'm glad Ivan bagged this guy, hopefully this is a foreshadow of stability in the Caucasus region.

 

[Rik Meleet]

So, Osama is also a bad man with a legitimate goal?

no, he is a bad man with an illegitmate goal.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

So, Osama is also a bad man with a legitimate goal?

This is a very tough question to answer, so just take it at face value: his "goal" is to advance his own people, so I'd say it is legitamate, as every patriot owes this to his country and people, but I obviously do not agree with his methods of choice. It happens that his goal comes into contradiction with ours, but that's just how the world turns, the man has a right to want his people to be great again.

 

[Winner]

"Fight against Russians? Yes, they deserve it, but killing innocent children? That's barbarism."

I'm all for a people's right to self determination.
I'm wary about it when the people in question blow up schools.

Shoot soldiers! It's better PR!

Chechens lost, they know it. Do you know why they lost? Because Russians are not Americans. They don't give up so easily. They're willing to make sacrifices, they're willing to sacrifice a lot. If Americans had the same death-toll in Iraq as Russians have in Chechnya, they'd have left Iraq long time ago.

 

[Winner]

no, he is a bad man with an illegitmate goal.

How is that, he claims he wants Americans and other Westerners to leave Muslim lands. Isn't that legitimate? If not, why?

Legitimacy of the cause doesn't approve the means. Both are/were criminals who deserve to die for what they did. Their actions have brought eternal shame on their cause and their people.

 

[Pyrite]

"Chechens lost, they know it" At this point, most people do.

"Because Russians are not Americans. They don't give up so easily." Uh. I thought they lost because they were fighting a vastly more advanced nation, with a very close proximity to that nation, and were of extreme strategic importance?

"If Americans had the same death-toll in Iraq as Russians have in Chechnya, they'd have left Iraq long time ago"
Probably, but who cares? The chechens should commit guerilla warfare if they feel they want to have a country and want to use violence to get it, they should use violence legitimately and target military structures and personell. (also large commercial and industrial buildings are valid, at least in the history of warfare)

 

[Rik Meleet]

How is that, he claims he wants Americans and other Westerners to leave Muslim lands. Isn't that legitimate? If not, why? (..)

Because Osama -unlike Basayev- doesn't represent that country's governing institution.

Open a thread on it if you are interested and cease the threadjack here.

On Topic: The Russians are learning that hundreds of years of oppressing Chechens is not forgotten. Czaristic Russia started it, the Stalinists continued and the Democratics didn't end it.

 

[Winner]

"Chechens lost, they know it" At this point, most people do.

"Because Russians are not Americans. They don't give up so easily." Uh. I thought they lost because they were fighting a vastly more advanced nation, with a very close proximity to that nation, and were of extreme strategic importance?

You thought wrong. It is all about morale. Americans could have won the Vietnam war if they had guts to keep up their effort.
Soviets could have won the war in Afghanistan, from the same reason.

I want to say that Russians are simply too stubborn to admit defeat. They will rather lose 100,000 soldiers than let some small, unimportant mini-republic go. And of course, they will kill millions of Chechens if they have to. That makes the difference - morale.

"If Americans had the same death-toll in Iraq as Russians have in Chechnya, they'd have left Iraq long time ago"
Probably, but who cares? The chechens should commit guerilla warfare if they feel they want to have a country and want to use violence to get it, they should use violence legitimately and target military structures and personell. (also large commercial and industrial buildings are valid, at least in the history of warfare)

They can, but they will never win as long as Russia remains Russian.

 

[Winner]

Because Osama -unlike Basayev- doesn't represent that country's governing institution.

Open a thread on it if you are interested and cease the threadjack here.

That's a thin ice you're walking on here. But I am not in mood to discuss that in depth.

On Topic: The Russians are learning that hundreds of years of oppressing Chechens is not forgotten. Czaristic Russia started it, the Stalinists continued and the Democratics didn't end it.

Well, Chechens, on the other hand, have learned that Russians will not flinch. Chechnya is their personal Purgatory which is here to wash away the shame from the last decade, in which they lost their empire.

 

[Pyrite]

"Americans could have won the Vietnam war if they had guts to keep up their effort."

The american populace wasn't behind the war. And why should they have been? Thank god the government didn't continue it's denial of public opinion, things were close to revolution round these parts.

"They can, but they will never win as long as Russia remains Russian."

I really have no idea what you're ranting about. I'm simply saying, they have the right to revolt. It has nothing to do with the right to win. Yes, many americans vocally oppose wars started for stupid reasons by military hawks. You're painting this as a bad thing, and I'm honestly wondering why you decided to start this argument?

 

[garric]

"Americans could have won the Vietnam war if they had guts to keep up their effort."

The american populace wasn't behind the war. And why should they have been? Thank god the government didn't continue it's denial of public opinion, things were close to revolution round these parts.

"They can, but they will never win as long as Russia remains Russian."

I really have no idea what you're ranting about. I'm simply saying, they have the right to revolt. It has nothing to do with the right to win. Yes, many americans vocally oppose wars started for stupid reasons by military hawks. You're painting this as a bad thing, and I'm honestly wondering why you decided to start this argument?

I can't believe that I actually have to say this, but there's a big difference between a semi-peaceful protest and actually shooting people.

 

[Winner]

"Americans could have won the Vietnam war if they had guts to keep up their effort."

The american populace wasn't behind the war. And why should they have been? Thank god the government didn't continue it's denial of public opinion, things were close to revolution round these parts.

You're getting close. In Russia, public opinion doesn't matter

"They can, but they will never win as long as Russia remains Russian."

I really have no idea what you're ranting about. I'm simply saying, they have the right to revolt. It has nothing to do with the right to win. Yes, many americans vocally oppose wars started for stupid reasons by military hawks. You're painting this as a bad thing, and I'm honestly wondering why you decided to start this argument?

Oh, you got me wrong. I don't say they haven't right to fight, as long as they keep it strictly on a military level. I am just saying they will not win, which makes their fight rather pointless.

If they were fighting against US, France or Britain, then they would have a decent chance. Western countries eventually give up, when their losses become unbearable in the eyes of public. Russia doesn't have this problem.

 

[Pyrite]

"You're getting close. In Russia, public opinion doesn't matter"
heh

"I am just saying they will not win, which makes their fight rather pointless"
Killing an oppressor has a point, simply because you are killing your oppressor.

 

[LLXerxes]

Good. A dead terrorist is a good terrorist IMHO. One fear spreader down, many more to go.

You can think of each as individual fear spreaders, or you can think of this guy as the big dog.
Should we expect the same reaction from the Chechen rebels that we recieved everywhere else? Because I don't know if the Chechneyians (sp?) have operated in the same way as Al Queda, besides the general way of terrorists (bombings and using fear to enstate new rules)

 

[blackheart]

Chechens lost, they know it. Do you know why they lost? Because Russians are not Americans. They don't give up so easily. They're willing to make sacrifices, they're willing to sacrifice a lot. If Americans had the same death-toll in Iraq as Russians have in Chechnya, they'd have left Iraq long time ago.

Explain Afghanistan for the Soviets then? Making sacrifices goes so far before it turns into blind arrogance that wastes resources.

 

[Pyrite]

"I can't believe that I actually have to say this, but there's a big difference between a semi-peaceful protest and actually shooting people."

You don't have to say it. I support both. (as long as you target soldiers, military infrastructure and strategic targets designed to help the war effort. Not simple terrorism.)

 

[LLXerxes]

They're willing to make sacrifices, they're willing to sacrifice a lot

Like the sacrifice of 200 school children that resulted in... nothing good? The US has more at stake on a global scale, our forces are stretched out everywhere and worn down, we're a big terrorist target. It's hard to compare us with the Russians when you think about he circumstances.

 

[Norlamand]

One more down, untold millions to go...............