Russia's Top Terrorist Killed

[Japanrocks12]

it's good to see that at least one nation's antiterrorist efforts have succeeded.

 

[Ramius75]

I think the guy got what he deserved. If he cant see the morality of killing children, then he dont deserved to live too.

Nonetheless, its also fair to point out that many children were also killed in the Iraq War, Afganistan war, Vietnam war and many other. All were consider deliberated as those warmongers know that death cannot be avoided.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

Nonetheless, its also fair to point out that many children were also killed in the Iraq War, Afganistan war, Vietnam war and many other.

I believe most of the civilian casualties were because of people like Zarqawi, not the US.

 

[CaptainF]

I believe most of the civilian casualties were because of people like Zarqawi, not the US.

I believe such claims have been debunked numerous times.

 

[Ramius75]

I believe most of the civilian casualties were because of people like Zarqawi, not the US.

The different between Zarqawi, basayev and "legitimate Gov" like Putin, Bush is that the former specifically target civilian, to spread terror coz they know they cannot win the war in convenetional ways.

Whereelse Bush, Blair and the others with large resources know that they can win the war by targetting the adminstrative gov of the oppostitions and "try" to avoid as many civilian deaths as possible (bad publicity).

But the similiarity is that civilians still get kill, one way or another.

 

[Kozmos]

I wonder why Chechnya isnt allowed to secede, I think Russia has some critical pipelines going through it. Anyone feel free to enlighten me.

 

[Ramius75]

I wonder why Chechnya isnt allowed to secede, I think Russia has some critical pipelines going through it. Anyone feel free to enlighten me.

Most large imperialistic country will not allow part of their country to secede. Coz once Chechnya can do it, many other small states will likewise follow and Putin might not want to be the man to allow that.

Will lincoln be held as a great leader if the South were allowed to secede ? Im not sure. The European will love it thou, to see America breaking into smaller part. but not from the USA point of view.

Its relative.

 

[Kozmos]

Chechnya is a popcorn in terms of territory size, the main reasons I see are:
1. Checens were not a recognized republic in the Soviet Union.
2. It is too small.
3. A major chokepoint of the oil infrastructure runs through it.

I believe the main reason for keeping Chechens on a leash is number 3.

 

[garric]

Chechnya is a popcorn in terms of territory size, the main reasons I see are:
1. Checens were not a recognized republic in the Soviet Union.
2. It is too small.
3. A major chokepoint of the oil infrastructure runs through it.

I believe the main reason for keeping Chechens on a leash is number 3.

That is absolutely not true, Russia is wise enough to rebuild infastructure, especially since this war has already cost billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives.

The only reason that the Russians can not allow the Chechens to flee the Soviet Union is because it would inspire others to leave also. They are also Muslims and wish to unite with other Muslim nations in the proximity, upsetting the balance of power. They will also send more terrorist attacks against Russia if ever released.

 

[Winner]

Explain Afghanistan for the Soviets then? Making sacrifices goes so far before it turns into blind arrogance that wastes resources.

Well, as far as I know, Soviets could have won the war in Afghanistan and they even had a better chance than Americans in Vietnam.

American soldiers in Vietnam served only for a limited time and then, they returned to the US, with all their experiences. Soviets, on the other hand, used their experienced soldiers again and again, together with with less trained conscripts who could learn from them. Their tactic was actually very effective and at the end of their campaign, they were winning on all fronts.

They've done the same mistake as the US though - they put trust in local afghan soldiers loyal to them. After they pulled back, these soldiers were not able to hold together and Afghanistan collapsed into anarchy.

All in all, Soviets were forced to pull back not because their will to fight over useless piece of rock was gone, but because their empire was collapsing and they simply couldn't affort to continue.

Chechnya is a different story. Russia isn't collapsing, it is on the rise and Chechnya is a sort of proving ground. They're not going to pull back. Because of their will to make necessary sacrifices and their vast resources, Russians will ultimately prevail.

(disclaimer: please note that I am not talking about the ethical dimension of this conflict. Both sides has made horrible atrocities and I am afraid Russians were those who started attacking civilians.)

 

[Kyriakos]

It looks like the only real reason is the Caspian sea oil (surprise, surprise)

"Russia has a vital security interest in maintaining its territorial integrity and discouraging bids for autonomy in republics where ethnic Russians are a minority, particularly in the Caucasus. Rebel movements have sprung up in neighboring Ingushetia, which has ethnic and religious ties to Chechnya. Inter-clan conflict has arisen in the republic of Dagestan and there have been recent reported incidents of armed confrontations with security forces in the republic of Kabardino-Balkaria. A generous grant of autonomy by Moscow to Chechnya might not result in effective separatist movements elsewhere, but it would be highly likely to create instability in the region.

Finally, Russia has a vital strategic interest in maintaining control over the northern Caucasus region and expanding its influence into the southern Caucasus to break American encirclement through Georgia and Azerbaijan, and prevent the United States from monopolizing Caspian Sea oil. De jure or de facto separation of Chechnya from Russia would be a major setback to core Russian strategic aims."

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=221&language_id=1

 

[Stormbringer]

I wonder why Chechnya isnt allowed to secede, I think Russia has some critical pipelines going through it. Anyone feel free to enlighten me.

Chechnya was allowed independance following the end of the conflict in 1996. It was not recognized independance but all Russian forces pulled out and the republic was allowed to do what it wanted.

Following that in the end of 1999 and the beginning of 2000 Chechen forces under Maskhadov and Basayev staged a number of terrorist attacks, including an attack on a military hospital, and an invasion of a neighboring province of Dagestan, claiming to create a muslim nation that would spawn all of the Caucus region. Following this President Putin ordered forces to go back into Chechnya and the second Chechen war began.

 

[Winner]

Like the sacrifice of 200 school children that resulted in... nothing good? The US has more at stake on a global scale, our forces are stretched out everywhere and worn down, we're a big terrorist target. It's hard to compare us with the Russians when you think about he circumstances.

The problem of yours is that you don't finish things. You invaded Iraq, lost about 2,500 men and you're talking about withdrawal, when your goals in Iraq are looking more and more distant every day. You're unable to fight the insurgency, because you don't make necessary steps. Now you believe that if you hand power to the local government, they will take care of everything. No, they won't. In few years, they'll collapse as the governments of South Vietnam and Afghanistan did after the superpowers pulled out.

If Russians were in Iraq, the would level few cities, torture thousands of rebels, place the enemy population in "refugee camps" and after few years, the insurgency would be quelled. Then they would place some brutal dictator into Saddam's place and then, they would go home.

Of course, you're liberal democracy so you can't do such things. And that is why you're losing such conflicts.

 

[nonconformist]

The only reason that the Russians can not allow the Chechens to flee the Soviet Union is because it would inspire others to leave also.

Hahahaha! Anyone else spot this?
Explains a lot.
"Meet the new boss-same as the old boss".

 

[HannibalBarka]

One more down, untold millions to go...............

Millions???? waouuuuuuuuu, should I call you Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Pol Pot Sir?

 

[blackheart]

The only reason that the Russians can not allow the Chechens to flee the Soviet Union is because it would inspire others to leave also. They are also Muslims and wish to unite with other Muslim nations in the proximity, upsetting the balance of power. They will also send more terrorist attacks against Russia if ever released.

Comrade Stalin would be turning in his grave if he were to know a so-called American conservative anti-communist patriot saying this.

 

[Japanrocks12]

That is absolutely not true, Russia is wise enough to rebuild infastructure, especially since this war has already cost billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives.

The only reason that the Russians can not allow the Chechens to flee the Soviet Union is because it would inspire others to leave also. They are also Muslims and wish to unite with other Muslim nations in the proximity, upsetting the balance of power. They will also send more terrorist attacks against Russia if ever released.

Living some ten to fifty years in the past, are we?

 

[blackheart]

Well, as far as I know, Soviets could have won the war in Afghanistan and they even had a better chance than Americans in Vietnam.

American soldiers in Vietnam served only for a limited time and then, they returned to the US, with all their experiences. Soviets, on the other hand, used their experienced soldiers again and again, together with with less trained conscripts who could learn from them. Their tactic was actually very effective and at the end of their campaign, they were winning on all fronts.

And what exactly did the Soviets manage to do besides occupy Kabul and demoralize their men?

They've done the same mistake as the US though - they put trust in local afghan soldiers loyal to them. After they pulled back, these soldiers were not able to hold together and Afghanistan collapsed into anarchy.

If the Soviets were so strong, why did they pull back and have to rely on locals?

All in all, Soviets were forced to pull back not because their will to fight over useless piece of rock was gone, but because their empire was collapsing and they simply couldn't affort to continue.

Their empire was collapsing because their resources were being drained, a big part of it due to the eternal fighting in Afghanistan.

Chechnya is a different story. Russia isn't collapsing, it is on the rise and Chechnya is a sort of proving ground. They're not going to pull back. Because of their will to make necessary sacrifices and their vast resources, Russians will ultimately prevail.

And Russia will waste its time and squabble its resources and men in Chechnya when it can be doing bigger things.

 

[GinandTonic]

Excelent, just a little bit more oxygen for the rest of us today!

 

[Commy]

Living some ten to fifty years in the past, are we?

No, ten or twenty years in future.