Savage v Civilized

[Hygro]

Caught a nice thread arc on the topic but wanted to expand it. I think it is of utmost importance and want to hear what you all have to say.

There was a mouthwash post a while back linking to the alleged happiness of the Comanches that was a wake up call. In my mind it’s the opposite of the process of our civilization of which much is basically call the pornification of everything in place of doing it ourselves.

Anyway spending a few months where it was more savage, more mind-to-matter and everything was a little riskier so you had to focus made for a daily happy life, for me. So it’s been utmost on my mind and would like to hear your thoughts on the subject and how we might be able to create a more savage future, while leaving behind the cruelty of our past form and enjoying and continuing to gain the fruits of civilization.

 

[Berzerker]

Their neighbors thought they were savages...I think. The Comanches were among the first tribes to master horse warfare.

Otoh South Park did an episode about the savagery of Japanese killing whales and dolphins because of the Enola Gay - the USA lied to them about who dropped the bomb on them (a whale and a dolphin). We civilized them by changing the pilots to chicken and cow.

 

[Farm Boy]

House dogs lead very safe, incredibly boring lives. Zoo animals easily become neurotic.

People who are skiing don't insist on guardrails for (all) the swinging, windy lifts - and people will pay so much to go that the nicer resorts have increased in price something like 5x in the past several years and are out of reach without lots of cash. Problem solving helps, but maybe it's sort of like the mental aspect of arousal? Sure, a guy can buy a toy and it works for the intended purpose, but it's kinda... yeah. It doesn't fool you fool you. No relationship is getting built or maintained. My guess is that if people aren't building or destroying something then they're already feeling kinda dead. There's a reason MMOs have so many bars to fill and why endgame is always fashion.

 

[Hygro]

Their neighbors thought they were savages...I think. The Comanches were among the first tribes to master horse warfare.

Otoh South Park did an episode about the savagery of Japanese killing whales and dolphins because of the Enola Gay - the USA lied to them about who dropped the bomb on them (a whale and a dolphin). We civilized them by changing the pilots to chicken and cow.

Different kind of savage I guess. A bit hard to pin down the meaning with just the word savage since there are different meanings.

 

[Berzerker]

anyone more brutal than you might be a savage

/Jeff Foxworthy

 

[Hygro]

anyone more brutal than you might be a savage

/Jeff Foxworthy

I suppose, but some very gentle people I know are quite savage in meaningful regards. People who sort of transcend being civilized rather than are outside its walls (or groping advance).

 

[Berzerker]

I don't want to face
The killer instinct
Face it in you or me

We carry a sensitive cargo
Below the waterline
Ticking like a time bomb
With a primitive design

Behind the finer feelings
This civilized veneer
The heart of a lonely hunter
Guards a dangerous frontier

The balance can sometimes fail
Strong emotion can tip the scale

Don't want to silence
A desperate voice
For the sake of security

No one wants to make
A terrible choice
On the price of being free

I don't want to face
The killer instinct
Face it in you or me
So we keep it under lock and key

It's not a matter of mercy
It's not a matter of laws
Plenty of people will kill you
For some fanatical cause


It's not a matter of conscience
A search for probable cause
It's just a matter of instinct
A matter of fatal flaws

No reward for resistance
No assistance
No applause

I don't want to face
The killer instinct
Face it in you or me
So we keep it under lock and key

I don't want to face
The killer instinct
Face it in you or me
So we keep it under lock and key
Lock and key

I don't want to face
The killer instinct
Face it in you or me
So we keep it under lock and key
Lock and key

We don't want to be victims
On that we all agree
So we lock up the killer instinct
And throw away the key

Neil Peart, Rush

 

[Hygro]

Well it’s a problem.

 

[amadeus]

I don’t think you’re talking about some kind of neo-primitivism or rejection of technology here, but it sounds like being out of your comfort zone gave you a certain sense of purpose and accomplishment?

I don’t know how you define “savage” as opposed to “civilized” because I don’t think the technical or material conditions of a people create civilization in the sense that people live peacefully in a cooperative society.

I could be way off the mark in my reply though.

 

[Kyriakos]

There isn't much of a bonus to being a savage, unless you are in war. A difference is that a savage cannot meaningfully reflect on their state, so it is more fleeting still - contrast to non-human being, like pets, who generally seem to live in the moment.
Though I think your OP was more about contrasting "savage" to acute self-awareness, which clearly is also no fun

 

[Berzerker]

I saw a study charting violent crime in ancient Babylon during the era of Hammurabi. I guess they looked at skeletons and concluded society was quite peaceful.

 

[Kaitzilla]

So it’s been utmost on my mind and would like to hear your thoughts on the subject and how we might be able to create a more savage future, while leaving behind the cruelty of our past form and enjoying and continuing to gain the fruits of civilization.

USA #1 has already achieved perfect success thanks to the 2nd amendment.
When I roll out the door and dash to my car in a zig-zag pattern, I always thank the founding fathers for making sure my country will never be dull from day 1.

https://tanktownusa.com/

3:22

 

[Hygro]

My guess is that if people aren't building or destroying something then they're already feeling kinda dead. There's a reason MMOs have so many bars to fill and why endgame is always fashion.

Fashion, or simply PvP.

I agree with your meaning, I would like to add adventuring which can include exploring and discovering and other such wonders. Video games and the internet was that for many, especially when young, but it wears off much quicker than say physical exploits and activities.

 

[Hygro]

There isn't much of a bonus to being a savage, unless you are in war. A difference is that a savage cannot meaningfully reflect on their state, so it is more fleeting still - contrast to non-human being, like pets, who generally seem to live in the moment.
Though I think your OP was more about contrasting "savage" to acute self-awareness, which clearly is also no fun

Is this a semantic thing? Like how you are defining savage? Perhaps the scale of what you mean is too different to compare but for example the civilized mentality could be “we will wait for the officials” and the savage mentality could be “let’s not wait for this is possible with us”, which would be a greater awareness of the agents and their possibilities. I don’t agree that a more active will to power or willingness to risk precludes a deeper self awareness than not engaging what you are with where you are. So how do you mean?

 

[MaryKB]

I'm not totally sure what you mean by savage and civilized.

The idea of "savage" though, and what it evokes in my mind, definitely doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. I hate "roughing it" in any way, I do not like to struggle or to sweat. I enjoy automation and not having to do things myself, leisure time is extremely important to me. I feel that "civilization" promotes the creation of art, which you can't really do when you're struggling for survival.

I guess that works for some people though, and I'm glad you enjoyed your time in the jungle

 

[amadeus]

What if this is Hygro's attempt to make us debate The Flintstones vs. The Jetsons?

On the surface, it would sound like The Jetsons had the higher standard of living with all of its ultra-modern conveniences; however, The Flintstones had just as many dinosaur-powered luxuries that had superior wisecracks compared to the extremely obnoxious and buttinsky robot maid Rosie. Furthermore, Betty Rubble was also the most attractive and affectionate mate of the three main families (Flintstone, Rubble, and Jetson) and less likely to get caught up in unworkable schemes behind their husbands' backs.

So for me, I'm going The Flintstones over The Jetsons on that basis. Unless I needed some medical treatment, in which case I would choose The Jetsons.

 

[H4run]

I think one should once in a while take a risky but well measured activity, for the sake of pleasing or feeding our primal impulse, like for instance bungee jumping or travelling to a travel save foreign country, eating food that you never eat before, being in a land that you don't have a tad idea the language that they are talking about, this thing boost your life.

It's not really a risk, but your brain understand it as so-it thrills the brain, and by doing that you getting a reward. Hence it's not really savage vs civilized, it's a sedentary and more predictable way of life vs a dynamic and less predictable way of life, the type of job or profession you chose can also determined what kind of life are you on currently.

A routine life is boring. But taking an unknown risk for adrenaline boost also may not be a smart things to do.

 

[Estebonrober]

A routine life is boring.

Said no good hermit ever!

 

[luiz]

I don't think it's really a matter of savage VS civilized but of your outlook on life and how you choose to spend your time. Perhaps a bigger proportion of the population of "savage" societies has an outlook more propitious to happiness, though.

 

[Farm Boy]

Fashion, or simply PvP.

I agree with your meaning, I would like to add adventuring which can include exploring and discovering and other such wonders. Video games and the internet was that for many, especially when young, but it wears off much quicker than say physical exploits and activities.

I guess to weigh in on the savagery vs civilization, I interpret the mindset not as material development, but social organization. Improvement is the goal of both savagery and civilization, but one is less structured and more individual, more risk-prone. The other is more risk-averse, structured, and communal. They're better than each other at different things(and communal activity can be remarkably risky, brutal, and savage at times).

I've been thinking of it through the lens of Office Space because it provides such a great example of an incredibly civilized, hierarchical, comfortable, safe, and suffocating environment resulting in neurosis. Like a human zoo(they're everywhere). Some people love living like that. Flair is about their level of desired individualism and risk. But I think even they get it wrong sometimes. Like the fella that got in a car accident was trying to kill himself, and a lot of disruption made him much much happier*. Same with Milt. Same with all the characters(but that was sort of the point of the flick). But they wouldn't have been happy in prison(probably), so it was a lot about them finding new balances of the old equation. Like with the construction job. None of them were aiming for pounding rocks or tanning deer pelts by hand.

I feel that "civilization" promotes the creation of art, which you can't really do when you're struggling for survival.

This is an interesting take because it runs absolutely opposite to my general impression. Might be an artifact of how we're interpreting "savage/civilized" or even "art," but to dig in just for funzies: much really good art seems to come from a place of "outsiderness." Which I think is pretty much leaning savagery for purposes of this discussion. Being an outsider is more dangerous and way less comfortable than being safely ensconced where everyone expects you to be. "Rent" the play loses much of its poignancy and meaning without the context of brutal shunning unto death by society. Starry Night was not painted by a respected man. Mother Theresa found the beauty in the pain and suffering of the cast off. Mark Twain's better observations come from the dregs, not the shining examples of society. A comfortable and well respected person may create a beautiful Tiffany lamp. But, generally, they're going to paint boring pictures and write boring books.

Edit: *I'd be open to an argument he was the most happy being civilized, disruption made him suicidal, and a fluke of savage civilization put him back into happy civilized despite what would otherwise be ridiculous cost. I think I like that better, now that I think about it.