Scandinavian Expansion for VD - Brainstorm

[The Capo]

I thought Ragnar was a mythological ruler, so I don't know really.

I'm sure there are better options, but in my mod I have Christian IV and Margrete as leaders for Denmark, and Gustav Adolph as a leader for Sweden. I would suggest adding Gustav Vasa to Sweden as well, its a great LH. For Norway, I am not really sure, but maybe Haakon or St. Olav? I don't know that much about Norway.

 

[nutnut]

Ragnar should definitely go to Sweden. I agree with the Capo, Gustavus Adolphus is a must have for Sweden.

 

[Magma]

Christian IV is mostly known for building silly monuments all over the country and wasting away the treasury on wars. <.<

 

[TheLastOne36]

Karl something of Sweden was important leader too.

 

[The Capo]

Karl something of Sweden was important leader too.

You are probably talking about this guy, Karl XII.

 

[702]

I would have Cnut as a Danish leader.

 

[NikNaks]

I thought Ragnar was a mythological ruler, so I don't know really.

Well, mythological or not, it'd be foolish to drop a leader with art and AI from a playing point of view.

Ragnar should definitely go to Sweden.

Any other suggestions? I'll go with Sweden if not.

I'm sure there are better options, but in my mod I have Christian IV and Margrete as leaders for Denmark, and Gustav Adolph as a leader for Sweden. I would suggest adding Gustav Vasa to Sweden as well, its a great LH. For Norway, I am not really sure, but maybe Haakon or St. Olav? I don't know that much about Norway.

I agree with the Capo, Gustavus Adolphus is a must have for Sweden.

Christian IV is mostly known for building silly monuments all over the country and wasting away the treasury on wars. <.<

Karl something of Sweden was important leader too.

You are probably talking about this guy, Karl XII.

I would have Cnut as a Danish leader.

So, suggestions so far:
- Sweden - Gustavus Adolphus, Gustav Vasa & Charles XII (& Ragnar)
- Denmark - Cnut/Canute, Christian IV & Margrete
- Norway - Haakon, Olaf II (Saint Olaf) & Harald Hardrada

I think having 4 for Sweden would be a stretch, with the addition of Ragnar, so I'll probably drop one from each to even it out. I'm thinking of losing Margrete (Cnut would give it some originality instead of being a straight copy of Capo's choices, if nothing else) and probably Vasa from Sweden. I think St Olaf is facing the chop for Norway.

Also, which Haakon were you referring to, Capo? Haakon IV seems to be the most successful, so I assume him?

 

[CyberChrist]

Ragnar should definitely go to Sweden.

Why is that?
Apart from the fact that there is little conclussive evidence that anyone named Ragnar Lothbrok ever existed in the first place, then all legendary/semi-historical references to him that I am aware of indicates that he is either of Norwegian or Danish descendency.

 

[702]

Assuming that Ragnars art is kept, please lets lose the horns from the helmet!

 

[CyberChrist]

Well, mythological or not, it'd be foolish to drop a leader with art and AI from a playing point of view.
Any other suggestions? I'll go with Sweden if not.

Imo then you should just drop Ragnar altogether (just use his model for Harald).

Besides that then I don't see why 3 rulers for each nation would be a problem (apart from an animated art perspective of course). The 3 you listed for each nation seems like a good spread of leader personalities.

 

[NikNaks]

Imo then you should just drop Ragnar altogether (just use his model for Harald).

Besides that then I don't see why 3 rulers for each nation would be a problem (apart from an animated art perspective of course). The 3 you listed for each nation seems like a good spread of leader personalities.

There's already an excellent Harald LH out there, and that wouldn't work if the Vikings stay in. Remember it'll be an optional thing, so if you choose to keep them, you'd end up with twins

Three seems too many for add-on civs like this. Remember that most civs only have one or two, so it's just a little unbalanced. It's also more work for me, so that sways the decision somewhat

 

[CyberChrist]

Fair enough, but since you are keeping the Vikings then I'd say you should drop Canute as he really was more a Viking king than not. Margrete I and Christian IV makes better representatives for post Viking-era Denmark.

 

[The Capo]

Well, mythological or not, it'd be foolish to drop a leader with art and AI from a playing point of view.

Never said to drop him, I said I didn't know. There's a difference there, no?

I believe he is known as Haakon the good. Here's his WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE.

I suppose Haakon IV would be better though.

 

[The Capo]

Fair enough, but since you are keeping the Vikings then I'd say you should drop Canute as he really was more a Viking king than not. Margrete I and Christian IV makes better representatives for post Viking-era Denmark.

I don't think the point is to make a post-viking-era civ out of the Viking Civ, but to better-represent that civ by breaking it into different Kingdoms/Civs. So the goal is to keep Viking-age leaders for the new civs.

 

[Magma]

Margeret should without doubt be the last leader you remove from Denmark. She was more successful than Christian IV ever were.

 

[CyberChrist]

I don't think the point is to make a post-viking-era civ out of the Viking Civ, but to better-represent that civ by breaking it into different Kingdoms/Civs. So the goal is to keep Viking-age leaders for the new civs.

I understand, but since the Vikings is not going to be replaced, then the scandinavian peoples of that era are already more than sufficiently represented by their own seperate civ.

Surely the reason for making seperate civs was not to focus further on the Viking aspect, but rather to focus on a more modern representation of the different factions that developed after the Viking era.

 

[gopher666]

I know I'm not a big time poster on this board, but I do lurk and follow it. Seeing as I'm Norwegian myself, I'd like to chime in. Seems like you guys have done most of the discussing already, so I'll leave the issues at the door, and simply come up with concise suggestions for my own country; I don't know enough about Danish and Swedish history to say.

Norway

Leaders (listed in my opinion from most important to least):
*Harald Fairhair - Aggressive, Expansive - The man that unifed Norway into one Kingdom, and our first King.
*Haakon VII - Charismatic, Creative - Norway's first King after regaining independence from Sweden. He was a major driving force behind the Norwegian resistance against Nazi occupation, and an extremely popular regent. I'd particularly like to see him in, as he deviates a lot from any other possible options for Norwegian leaders, and gives more variety.
*Harald Hardrade - Aggressive, Imperialistic - Judging by this thread, the most well-known of Norwegian Viking age rulers, probably because of his invasion of England. He was an aggressive King, evident by his epithet, which means "Hard ruler".
*St. Olaf Haraldsson - Aggressive, Spiritual - The man credited for completing the spread of Christianity in Norway, by missionary and sword both.

Unique Unit:
*Milorg - The members of the resistance movement in Norway during WW2. As saboteurs rather than soldiers, I think a Spy with a movement rate of 2 might be in the ballpark. I'm suggesting this because they're more trademark Norwegian than, for example, the longship, which the other Scandinavian cultures can lay as much claim to.
*Hirdsmann - Another possibility; in Norwegian history, the hird was the King's retinue, a rather impressive small-scale force, somewhat comparable to knights in Europe as a whole. They'd probably be swordsmen, though; possibly without a city attack bonus, but with either a higher base strength, or better at city defense or so.

Unique Building:
*Stavkirke (Stave Church) - While these were built in Sweden and Denmark also, all but one remaining stavkirke to this day is found in Norway, and is without a doubt the most "Norwegian" of any suggestions I can think of. Being a rather small church, I'd suggest it to be a temple, with an added culture bonus.

 

[NikNaks]

Fair enough, but since you are keeping the Vikings then I'd say you should drop Canute as he really was more a Viking king than not. Margrete I and Christian IV makes better representatives for post Viking-era Denmark.

Never said to drop him, I said I didn't know. There's a difference there, no?

Well, the way you said he was mythical implied you didn't think he should have a place at all Sorry for any confusion.

I don't think the point is to make a post-viking-era civ out of the Viking Civ, but to better-represent that civ by breaking it into different Kingdoms/Civs. So the goal is to keep Viking-age leaders for the new civs.

I understand, but since the Vikings is not going to be replaced, then the scandinavian peoples of that era are already more than sufficiently represented by their own seperate civ.

Surely the reason for making seperate civs was not to focus further on the Viking aspect, but rather to focus on a more modern representation of the different factions that developed after the Viking era.

This is the issue, really. As there's a split between those who'd like to keep the Vikings and those who'd remove them, the easiest option for me is to offer both, but we get issues like this. I'm keen to have the new civs represent the majority of the history of their country, so having Cnut with Denmark makes perfect sense. Capo is right in the fact that this mod is trying to improve the way the Norse peoples are portrayed in civ, but equally I don't want to remove a civ like the Vikings, which, I'm sure many will agree, is always good fun to play as, if people don't want to. So, this is the dilemma. Hopefully I'll get to a good compromise.

Margeret should without doubt be the last leader you remove from Denmark. She was more successful than Christian IV ever was.

How so? Any specifics?

I know I'm not a big time poster on this board, but I do lurk and follow it. Seeing as I'm Norwegian myself, I'd like to chime in. Seems like you guys have done most of the discussing already, so I'll leave the issues at the door, and simply come up with concise suggestions for my own country; I don't know enough about Danish and Swedish history to say.

Norway

Leaders (listed in my opinion from most important to least):
*Harald Fairhair - Aggressive, Expansive - The man that unifed Norway into one Kingdom, and our first King.
*Haakon VII - Charismatic, Creative - Norway's first King after regaining independence from Sweden. He was a major driving force behind the Norwegian resistance against Nazi occupation, and an extremely popular regent. I'd particularly like to see him in, as he deviates a lot from any other possible options for Norwegian leaders, and gives more variety.
*Harald Hardrade - Aggressive, Imperialistic - Judging by this thread, the most well-known of Norwegian Viking age rulers, probably because of his invasion of England. He was an aggressive King, evident by his epithet, which means "Hard ruler".
*St. Olaf Haraldsson - Aggressive, Spiritual - The man credited for completing the spread of Christianity in Norway, by missionary and sword both.

Unique Unit:
*Milorg - The members of the resistance movement in Norway during WW2. As saboteurs rather than soldiers, I think a Spy with a movement rate of 2 might be in the ballpark. I'm suggesting this because they're more trademark Norwegian than, for example, the longship, which the other Scandinavian cultures can lay as much claim to.
*Hirdsmann - Another possibility; in Norwegian history, the hird was the King's retinue, a rather impressive small-scale force, somewhat comparable to knights in Europe as a whole. They'd probably be swordsmen, though; possibly without a city attack bonus, but with either a higher base strength, or better at city defense or so.

Unique Building:
*Stavkirke (Stave Church) - While these were built in Sweden and Denmark also, all but one remaining stavkirke to this day is found in Norway, and is without a doubt the most "Norwegian" of any suggestions I can think of. Being a rather small church, I'd suggest it to be a temple, with an added culture bonus.

As you have a better idea on this than most of us, would you be able to select the two most significant leaders from the four suggestions? As this might be difficult, could I suggest a scoring system? Give each a score out of five for influence (winning wars, diplomacy, religion), legacy (do modern Norwegians remember them, and are their changes still visible) and popularity and the two with the highest scores go in. Obviously, I've come up with those criteria quickly, so I'm sure you can think of some better ones, but it's a suggestion at least

Also, here are the buttons. You'll be able to choose whether to go with symbols or with the modern flags.

Thanks to Yenemus and 0d1n3oo3Broad for the decals for the top 3.

 

[CyberChrist]

My point is that if you are keeping the Vikings as a seperate civ then it makes little sense to have leaders for the 3 scandinavian civs that are clearly Viking by nature - and even less so if it means the exclusion of later notable leaders that had an even higher impact on the way the 3 scandinavian civs turned out in modern times.

 

[NikNaks]

My point is that if you are keeping the Vikings as a seperate civ then it makes little sense to have leaders for the 3 scandinavian civs that are clearly Viking by nature - and even less so if it means the exclusion of later notable leaders that had an even higher impact on the way the 3 scandinavian civs turned out in modern times.

This is the whole issue if I leave it up to the user to decide after download. Maybe two separate packs would be better, one for the whole civ, from the Viking age to today, and one post-Viking. What do you think?