Scandinavian Expansion for VD - Brainstorm

[nutnut]

Arabs are from Saudi Arabia. The Babylonians occupied central and northern Iraq. Ethnically, they were different. The Vikings weren't ethnically different from present day Norwegians, Danes and Swedes. As Magma has pointed out, it would be wrong to have a Civ that reflects an era of history rather than a Civilisation. Admittedly, Firaxis have done that with the HRE but the beauty of Mods is that we can correct their mistakes.

Plus putting in the HRE means another pack for VD like this could be done for Central Europe. It could have Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Czech/Bohemia (whichever would be more appropriate). Plus some other of the bigger players in the HRE.

 

[TheLastOne36]

A VD for the HRE?

Sounds fun - Bavaria, Brandenburg, Bohemia, Austria, Platenite, Mecklenburg I think.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

A VD for the HRE?

Sounds fun - Bavaria, Brandenburg, Bohemia, Austria, Platenite, Mecklenburg I think.

Sounds real fun

I would add Saxony too to that list.

 

[NikNaks]

In my opinion, HRE is a candidate for a straight swap with Austria or another worthier civ. Anyway, back onto the scandinavia debate. At the weekend I'll write up a plan, and we can hone it down from there, but carry on thinking of ideas. It's really great to see so much interest

 

[TheLastOne36]

In my opinion, HRE is a candidate for a straight swap with Austria or another worthier civ. Anyway, back onto the scandinavia debate. At the weekend I'll write up a plan, and we can hone it down from there, but carry on thinking of ideas. It's really great to see so much interest

Capo is replacing them with the Franks.

Austria was to different imo for a direct swap.

Although it can be swapped with the Platinite or Bavaria or something.

Actually, I was thinking of an Iberia expanded in the future - Spain renamed Castille/or kept the same, Aragon, Leon, Catalunya, Basque, Galicia, Granada and Navarra. With new leaderheads for Portugal and Spain/Castille.

As for the mod in question...

Sweden

Gustav Vasa
Gustavus Adolphus
Karl XII *

* - needs leaderhead

UU: a Rifleman or Musketman or something.
UB: Not sure. I use a bank, because I couldn't figure out anything else (and the graphics were available in CIVGold.

Vikings will be kept the same I assume, just with some new eyecandy, and likely Canute.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

For the Swedish UU, how about a Carolean? There are graphics for them in the forums.

Here is an image of them carrying the dead body of Charles XII:

Spoiler :

 

[702]

Most ancient Arabs though were not Babylonians, they were... ancient Arabs.
The Babylonians were a distinctive civilisation who rose and fell, then, much later their cousins to the south rose and spread across much of the world.
There isn't much connection between them.

Whereas the Vikings rose, then didn't fall, just slowly morphed into modern day Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

 

[702]

Arabs are from Saudi Arabia. The Babylonians occupied central and northern Iraq. Ethnically, they were different. The Vikings weren't ethnically different from present day Norwegians, Danes and Swedes. As Magma has pointed out, it would be wrong to have a Civ that reflects an era of history rather than a Civilisation. Admittedly, Firaxis have done that with the HRE but the beauty of Mods is that we can correct their mistakes.

Plus putting in the HRE means another pack for VD like this could be done for Central Europe. It could have Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Czech/Bohemia (whichever would be more appropriate). Plus some other of the bigger players in the HRE.

Yeah that had occurred to me as well. I figured something similar to you, replace HRE with some of the peoples it ruled who aren't already represented, Austria, Switzerland, Bohemia, Poland (which is already available for VD so that would be very easy to slip in!)
I'm trying to think if there are any other civs that this could be done with, replaced and multiplied, and I doubt it... the rest I think are pretty much fine as they are.

Anyway, yes, Carolean I think would be good Swedish UU, replace the Musketman and an extra strength perhaps? Also, I think the VD Viking Musketman is based on a Carolean, or at least a Swedish soldier with a musket, so that unit is already there!

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Anyway, yes, Carolean I think would be good Swedish UU, replace the Musketman and an extra strength perhaps? Also, I think the VD Viking Musketman is based on a Carolean, or at least a Swedish soldier with a musket, so that unit is already there!

Yes, replacing the Musketman and adding an extra strength sounds good (or maybe giving it a promotion instead of the extra strength?). Here are the graphics for the Carolean:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253895

 

[RobinHat]

Okay, I'm sorry but I have to butt in here...

TheLastOne36, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I mean, ask a Dane or a Swede if they are Vikings. They would say no. Ask a Sioux or Iroquois if they are Native American, They would say yes. Ask a Dane of Swede if they are Scandinavian or Germanic, than they would say yes.

This is completely wrong. If you were to ask a Dane or Swede if he is a Viking, he would say 'Hell yes!'. If you were to ask a Dane or Swede if he is Germanic, he would look at you funny and say 'Umm... No?'.
What is your rationale for trying to break the link between the Vikings and present day Scandinavians? I mean you may as well say that the French are not Gauls, that present day Italians are not Romans, that present day Egyptians have nothing to do with the Egypt of the Pharaoes.
Nations evolve. They do not suddenly cease to be one thing and then morph into something new.

Vikings - Spoke Norse
Scandinavians - Speak Danish, Swedish, Norwegian

Vikings - Norse identity
Scandinavians - Danish/Swedish/Norwegian identites.

This is ridiculous... Can you please give us a rundown of the 'Norse' language? I happen to both read and understand the old Futhark runic alphabet used in much of Scandinavia all the way back from the 6th century, right up through much of the Viking era - I use it in my studies of this period, and the languages spoken in Scandinavia are very similiar (although not identical) to this.

There is no such language as 'Norse'. The language spoken back then has simply evolved into the languages spoken today, just as is the case in every country in the world.

Likewise, I am sure that if you travelled back to the Spain of 1000 years ago, you would find a very different language than the one they speak today. That does not mean that Spanish people didn't speak Spanish back then.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

If you were to ask a Dane or Swede if he is Germanic, he would look at you funny and say 'Umm... No?'.

Wouldn't matter, they are still Germanic regardless of what they think.

I mean you may as well say that the French are not Gauls, that present day Italians are not Romans, that present day Egyptians have nothing to do with the Egypt of the Pharaoes.

I get your point, but two of those are really bad examples. The French no longer speak a Celtic language, not to mention the genetic mixing with Germans and Latins; Egyptians of today have been extremely Arabicized, they are no longer the same Egyptians of the Pharaohs in all but name, they are a subtype of culture within Arabic culture.

I think most of what you say is valid though, but no need to get *that* upset.

 

[Magma]

I think most of what you say is valid though, but no need to get *that* upset.

Nationalism has a thing of doing that, it just happens being Vikings is a part of our nationalism. I would also think that many would link 'germanic' with Germany, who Scandinavians certainly do not wish to be aligned with.

But to be on topic and to aid a little in the project - I will give some ideas for a Danish UU.

I will try to keep at the 1100-Today period, seeing we do not wish to be mixed up with the Vikings, seemingly.

Frigate - Perhaps a cheaper version of these. Seeing we have always had a powerful fleet, even when we were overrun back in 1800-something by the Germans, we beat them with our largely superior fleet (Not that it helped against their artillery and rifles).

Pikeman - Shortly after we had completed a conversion to the Catholic faith we Danes went on a crusade into Estonia. If I remember right that is also where we got our flag that according to our bit nationalistic lore was a gift from God himself (Probably just a Templar banner, but if something weird happens some hundred years ago you blame God). Our army consisted mainly of rag-tag soldiers taken from all over the country. So I would replace the Pikeman with a militia type unit, one we can get earlier perhaps have some odd bonuses too.

I'm mostly for the frigate I might add. As for leaders I would say this:

King Valdemar II the Victorious (Valdemar Sejr)

Conqueror of Estonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdemar_the_Victorious


Margaret the I

A grand politician, she made the Kalmar Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_I_of_Denmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmar_union

Wikipedia since I cannot be arsed to write up all their life.


A unique building - Herregårde? I think that would roughly translate into manor, although I am not really sure. Wait, actually. I think I got a better one:

'Andelsmejeri'(Mejeri = Dairy-work) or 'Andelsslagteri'(Slagteri = Slaughter) ('Co-operative society' would be the English word) - Basically it is a load of farmers banding together and buying the machinery they need to produce butter and bacon of proper quality. You see during the industrialism it was the farmers that bought our products since they were able to make some good money by selling their own products to England. At the same time they expanded the Andels-corporations to make schools, libraries, etc. Basically this exact movement brought Denmark from a sorry backwards farming state to a wealthy industrialized nation.

What exactly it should do or not do is up to you. But I suggest you replace the factory with this one - seeing those things did not have a near as great impact on the Danish history.

Hope I at least contributed with something, also I cannot be sure everything is absolutely correct. Take it with some salt.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Just read the whole thread. It is a difficult question about the Vikings indeed. I really-really like them as a separate civ, but probably it would be more appropriate to replace it with the new ones (and not just add them). I can't really decide which version is better...
Why don't we ask for a poll from a moderator on this?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Btw, Finnish people are related to the Hungarians.
I agree that they are culturally linked to the modern Scandinavians too, but they have no or minimal connection with the Vikings. Same for Estonia.
So I would not add them to this Viking Expansion, but of course it wont be a too big mistake either...
Mainly i agree with Capo's suggestion: I would definietly add Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and maybe the Normans and the Saxons.
Even the Goths if everyone likes TheLastOne's idea

 

[702]

A unique building -

'Andelsmejeri'(Mejeri = Dairy-work) or 'Andelsslagteri'(Slagteri = Slaughter) ('Co-operative society' would be the English word) - Basically it is a load of farmers banding together and buying the machinery they need to produce butter and bacon of proper quality. You see during the industrialism it was the farmers that bought our products since they were able to make some good money by selling their own products to England. At the same time they expanded the Andels-corporations to make schools, libraries, etc. Basically this exact movement brought Denmark from a sorry backwards farming state to a wealthy industrialized nation.

What exactly it should do or not do is up to you. But I suggest you replace the factory with this one - seeing those things did not have a near as great impact on the Danish history.

As a Dane, what do you think of my idea of a Wind Turbine, or Wind Farm, to replace the Hydro Plant, which can be built anywhere, and perhaps costs less ?
Or for the Andels- idea, how about a replacement for the factory which also adds 5 or 10% ?

 

[RobinHat]

A quick note... I don't like the idea of adding Normans as they were basically Danes who conquered and settled in France. The first 'Norman' ruler was called Rollo and came from Faxe in Denmark.

An interesting point in this context is, that Rollo's grandson, William the Conqueror, was the one who finally eradicated all Danish influence from England - so it was actually the grandson of a Dane who finally broke power of the Danish Empire...

The cultural link to the Danes can actually also be seen on the Bayeux Tapestry.

The Danish banner was the raven banner (which was used by Canute and was used by every single Danish king up until 1219 when the present flag was introduced). It has been mentioned in several contemporary texts as 'Dánibroki' (Cloth of the Danes).


On the Bayeux Tapestry, there is a Norman knight depicted with what appears to be a pendant with a bird, possibly a raven:


Interestingly, the name 'Dánibroki' also became the name of the Danish flag that took over from the raven banner in 1219, and it still has that name today: 'Dannebrog'.
It looks like this, in case anyone didn't know :

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

We should just do the Nordic countries, I believe. Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland. Don't replace the Vikings. That would be like replacing the Celts with Ireland, Scotland, Wales... just not right.

 

[Magma]

As a Dane, what do you think of my idea of a Wind Turbine, or Wind Farm, to replace the Hydro Plant, which can be built anywhere, and perhaps costs less ?
Or for the Andels- idea, how about a replacement for the factory which also adds 5 or 10% ?

Well, to be honest I do not think they have had a great enough impact on the Danish history. I will not say that it is bad, for it certainly is not. I just think it comes a bit too late in the game and from a historic perspective it has not had the major impact that the co-operative societies have had yet. Wind power is an awesome thing though!

For the co-operative societies I would rather add 10% wealth, as they did not bring much science, yet they paved the way for the next generation. The boom in schools, and other communal buildings can easily be described by the production bonus which is already there.

 

[The Capo]

Well I have already put in my two cents on this, but I need better ideas for Denmark's UU and UB for my module, so keep the ideas coming. Currently I have the "Guard Hussar" as the UU and the "Herregaarde" as the UB. I'm not sure how good those ideas are but that's what I have now and I wouldn't mind changing them.

 

[RobinHat]

Possible Danish UU's could be (off the top of my head):

-Jomsviking (A dreaded band of Danish vikings who were feared throughout Scandinavia... perhaps too much like Berserkers really...)

-Longship (Could come early in the game and give the Danes a significant sea-raiding advantage if they are able to cross oceans for example)

-Jægersoldat (The Danish elite soldiers - kinda like the SEAL, except better - The Jægers wiped the floor with all other special forces at an international wargames tournament in America some years back )

-Snapphane (These were an elite Guerilla unit that fought in the war against Sweden in 1658 - The word is actually Swedish and means something like 'quick trigger', as the Snapphaner were known to be fast shooters)

All I can think of at the moment... Will let you know if I think of anything else...

Oh.. and don't use Garder Hussars... They were mostly just for show, prancing around in gala uniforms on horseback...