Scare Tactics and Cigarette Labels

[MobBoss]

Fair enough. Really, my main point is that I just don't see the justification of a sin tax on products. If the government isn't willing to make it illegal, then they just need to treat it like other products. If they don't want to do that, then they need to ban it and take the lumps from doing that.

Well, the sin tax does make sense, if one admits that total prohibition isnt feasible. But you have to be careful in its application. If the sin tax gets too high, all you end up doing is actually putting a de facto prohibition in place that would lead to black market activity.

So, by putting the sin tax on something, you cut down on its usage while not crossing the line into prohibition and the problems that would arise from doing that.

 

[Left]

By all means, explain. Not that I disagree with you, I do, just want to hear your thinking on it.

Steroids, for one. Exposure to lead. Certain vitamins.

http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/articles/webach.shtml

 

[MobBoss]

Steroids, for one. Exposure to lead. Certain vitamins.

http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/articles/webach.shtml

Isnt steroid use like that illegal?

Anyway, one you didnt give that I thought of: adultery.

 

[El_Machinae]

Being a condescending jerk leads to violence, too!

I'm with VRWCAgent. Sin taxes are something to be avoided. The government shouldn't be using such a stick to stop people from hurting themselves. Taxes can be used as a social tool, but are more intended for either funding legit government or capturing externalities. Sin taxes tend to be abused as an actual source of revenue.

 

[Left]

Anabolic steroids are controlled, not all steroids or testosterone supplements though.

and yeah I thought of going into all kinds of social reasons but I felt like that list could go forever.

 

[bhsup]

I'm with VRWCAgent.

Man, I need to sig that to give my posts gravitas! Now to work on your re: biblical interpretation!

 

[MobBoss]

Being a condescending jerk leads to violence, too!

Heh, I hope your not speaking from experience!!! But I do agree with you on that one.

I'm with VRWCAgent. Sin taxes are something to be avoided. The government shouldn't be using such a stick to stop people from hurting themselves.

I dont view sin taxes as a 'stick' per se. Its more like putting the ciggie shop on the top floor of a multi-story building...with no elevator. You can get what you want, but there is going to be a measure of discomfort getting there. There is a fine point to be established where the real addicts will continue to climb stairs while some will just give it up as not being worth it anymore.

Taxes can be used as a social tool, but are more intended for either funding legit government or capturing externalities.

Why cant they be both?

Sin taxes tend to be abused as an actual source of revenue.

Citation needed. I dont think there is merit in that allegation unless the caveat being made is that government spending in general is abusive. For example, a significant portion of my states cigartte tax goes to the state education budget for schools.

 

[Mise]

I also agree with El Mac, that taxes should capture the externalities of the activity (i.e. additional healthcare costs, however calculated), and not be used to "punish" people. I am, however, torn over the moral implications thereafter. I think society has a moral duty to help people and reduce suffering, which is why I support things like the welfare state and free universal healthcare. But does that duty extend to preventing people who wilfully and knowingly put themselves in danger? I don't believe so.

However, it does extend to educating the public on the health implications of their actions, which is why I support proper labelling of foods, for example, so that people can decide for themselves. "Informed consent" <-- basic principle of liberty.

 

[shadowplay]

World of Warcraft?

Link to video.

oh my god

 

[Arakhor]

I would be extremely cautious of such webcam videos. I would actually be more surprised if this is genuine.

 

[Bartleby]

(just returned from a smoke)

Where did you go? I smoke at the computer.

Interstingly, in Ireland they have text warnings in Irish and English and the Irish always seem to need twice as many words so the tl;dr effect comes into play before I get to the English warning.

 

[bhsup]

I don't smoke inside. Well...very rarely. Can't stand the smell of lingering smoke and also hate smoke in my eyes. I go outside to huff and puff.

 

[Bartleby]

Yeah, I sometimes go onto the patio to smoke when the weather's nice, but I live in Ireland...

 

[Cutlass]

I don't think that's a good idea. It shouldn't be the goal to get everyone to stop smoking. The goal should be merely to get people to think twice before starting and to help augment willpower if they want to quit.

Firstly, you already know about the black-market consequences of raising taxes on a consumable.

Secondly, it's bullying addicts for profit.

Cigarettes should be taxed to capture the externalities.

I don't know if we want people to completely stop smoking. What non-smokers don't realise is that smokers get a lot of benefit from smoking: cognitive and emotional. This really could be because our brain chemistry is a little different from each other. Now, there are consequences, but there might be a buy-now, pay-later type deal going on. Short-term benefit, coupled with an earlier death. If so, that's their choice.

My lack of sympathy for the cigarette companies is complete. It doesn't matter what 'common people' knew, they peddled death and addiction and ignorance for profit, and then lied about it as much as they could. Movies in the 80s talked about GHG-induced global warming, but that doesn't forgive the fossil fuel companies from astroturfing ignorance.

Finally, a London School of Economics has a good seminar (available via podcast) on "the Ageing Society" that really changed my thinking of the cost of smoking. It's not that a 70-year old's death is cheaper or more expensive (in total) than a 60-year old's death. It might be, it might not be. If you asked for me to pay for one of their 'last years' today, I wouldn't know which one to chose.
However, medical costs rise at about 8% per year right now. So, the real question is would your rather pay for someone's 'last year' this year or in ten years? With 8% growth, that cost could double. A smoker dying in 2010 might be more expensive than a non-smoker dying in 2010. But they're both much cheaper than a non-smoker dying in 2020.

Anyway, smokers make themselves into great guinea pigs for the cancer therapies that I'll need ~20 years later than they will. My medicine will be the off-patent success of their desperate attempts for a cure.

My thinking is more along the lines of fewer teens starting and more adults stopping. Sure, it's not a perfect cure all. But I think the costs in the long run have to be considered. For example, how many of the youth of a generation suffer asthma or diminished lung capacity do to exposure to smoke?

 

[carlosMM]

How exactly is a corporation exploiting me? I am smoking of my own free will. I started of my own free will and continue to smoke of my own free will. There is no exploitation here except by governments who decide to tax a legal product more than other products just because they disapprove of it. Either ban it or treat it like everything else.

Very likely, you're wrong. You do not HAVE any free will left with regards to smoking. In fact, your subconsciousness is been artfully manipulated by society (mainly ads and your experiences in social situations), and by a (likely - see Murky for an exception) biophysical dependency.

Honest question: do you know how a drug dependency neurologically works?
If so, can you explain it?

(Most people are utterly shocked when they find out what nicotine is doing with their brains. 95% go into outright denial.)

I used to smoke a pack a day and was able to quit cold turkey (even with people smoking around me).

You're one lucky dude! Congrats!

me, I never ever smoked, because even when I was 13 I knew I'd get hooked. not physically, but mentally and socially.

 

[Murky]

Very likely, you're wrong. You do not HAVE any free will left with regards to smoking. In fact, your subconsciousness is been artfully manipulated by society (mainly ads and your experiences in social situations), and by a (likely - see Murky for an exception) biophysical dependency.

Honest question: do you know how a drug dependency neurologically works?
If so, can you explain it?

(Most people are utterly shocked when they find out what nicotine is doing with their brains. 95% go into outright denial.)


You're one lucky dude! Congrats!

me, I never ever smoked, because even when I was 13 I knew I'd get hooked. not physically, but mentally and socially.

I have a strong will power. Once I decide to do something I do it.

I did use a lot of off-the-wall techniques. I did a lot of running (to remind me of how it affected my lungs). I also emptied a bunch of ashtrays into a glass jar and put it next to the astray to remind me of how gross it was. I had the jitters(withdrawal) for a couple of days but that quickly passed.

The main thing is find something to keep your mind and hands occupied. I had school, homework and other stuff I was doing around the house.

 

[The Yankee]

Maybe this will cut down on all those smokers in my office that feel entitled to ten breaks a day.

Still, I don't think we should be singling out cigarettes for this treatment.

 

[BuckyRea]

Warning: Cigarettes can ruin your reign over a medieval court​

 

[carlosMM]

I have a strong will power. Once I decide to do something I do it.

I did use a lot of off-the-wall techniques. I did a lot of running (to remind me of how it affected my lungs). I also emptied a bunch of ashtrays into a glass jar and put it next to the astray to remind me of how gross it was. I had the jitters(withdrawal) for a couple of days but that quickly passed.

The main thing is find something to keep your mind and hands occupied. I had school, homework and other stuff I was doing around the house.

Wow - such willpower and determination without an extremely strong exterior motive (e.g., girl won't marry you unless you quite) is really a rare thing! Well done!

 

[Murky]

Well, I can't say that the girls at school shielding their noses from my smoking smell didn't have anything to do with my decision.