SE 5 Peter of Russia

Monarch, up to 125AD. Advice/response most appreciated!

Well firstly I had problems the worldbuilder files - couldn't figure out how to open them from the game. However when I double-clicked the file it opened up fine - just meant I couldn't give Archery to the AI's as instructed. :p Also I couldn't play it with the BUG mod either :(

Spoiler :

Teched agriculture, BW for chopping, then wheel -> pottery for cheap granaries.
Built worker, warrior (to size 3), then settler I think.

Saw the copper, so my first settled one NW of it. Saw in the incans very close by, so decided to axe-rush. Got a barracks up in each city and marched 7 axemen around 70 turns in. Squished the capital (gaining Stonehenge :)) and just managed to get the second city (had to win 3 out of 4 approx 60% chance battles). 3rd settler came out after the axes - he went on a merry walk to the fish/sheep/stone spot about 8 spaces west. I wanted stone for the Pyramids.

Economy was in a shocking state - this is what I learnt from a no-cottages game about a week ago. I went about fixing it the only way I knew how - with the great lighthouse, which got built in my capital.

Around 700BC - 300BC my economy got fixed as I built the GLH, the pyramids in the old Incan capital (& switched to representation), and finally libraries came through. Happy cap was an awful problem before representation. Running around 7 scientists now.

Later, I settled next to the gems, teched IW so I could get access to gems, both for money for my economy, and for happiness (there are SO few happiness resources around!). Started settling the desert area too.

I've got a great prophet (from Stonehenge) and a great engineer (thanks, pyramids). The former I'm holding on to for shrine purposes. Wasn't too sure what to do with the second, but since I had nothing for my cities to build any more, I bulbed him for metal casting so I can get forges up (as much for the +1 happiness as the hammers).

Planning for my capital to get colossus and become a great merchant factory (GM points from GLH and colossus will help). Researching alphabet -> currency -> CoL for economic reasons & to hopefully found Confucianism. Planning a great scientist factory with the heroic epic in my newish desert city with has 7 flood plains, an oasis, a copper & 2 hills.

Longer term.... well I probably could crush the Dutch if I wanted to but want to work on the economy side of things. Once I get to CoL I'll settle up the rest of this continent. With 8 cities at 125AD I feel like I'm doing alright :) Ranked #1 in land & population.

From my last SE econ game I found it tough to decide when to shift from slavery to caste - both of which work well with food excesses. Any advice?

And finally - screenshots of the northern & southern halves of my kingdom. (Have a huge monitor so had to squish the resolution - makes it a bit unreadable but it gives an idea of how my game is going anyway).



 

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as I understand it you start the game with play scenario as usual, then go directly to world builder with 'ctrl+w', there you choose from the combobox "barbarians", switch to technology tab and search for archery and click it.
Correct me someone if I am wrong (since this is the way I will do it when playing)

edit:
oh and you should do it only with barbs, all other AI's are set-up for their difficulties by me if you select the proper world builder save (in your case the Monarch version, they have archery there)
 
Welsh - Choose custom scenario and select the game. Make sure the difficulty is set to Monarch next to your player at the top. You can also change events/huts options and speed as you desire. I usually just shield the AIs with my hand while on this screen.

Once you load, you can go into WorldBuilder with the shortcut or through the menu. Before I do this, assuming you are running BUG, which should work by the way, use the filter view slider and lower to minimum before going into WB. This prevents you from seeing the map. Again, I als use my hand to block the list of AIs while I'm selecting Barbs. The barbs are at the bottom of the list, so i first cover it with my and and then careful slide my hand up to reveal "Barbarians" and select. Then add archery and/or hunting depending on difficulty.

BUG should be running by default anyway if you are using the single player option (custom assets) as it runs anytime you load BTS. If you are using the stand-alone version of BUG, you would have to load the mod first before loading the game. Single-player option is much easier.
 
Emperor/epic 1500AD:

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After enabling cuirassiers I began whipping out an army. In the meantime, I popped a couple of scientists who bulbed PP and chemistry, and I stole gulds and banking from HC (that GSpy sure earned his keep this game, and I only lost 1 spy in stealing all of those techs). By 1460AD I was ready for the :backstab: with 21 cuirassiers in 2 stacks (and more on the way):



A couple of my cities had over 50 turns of :whipped: :mad: (Kossin would be proud :lol: ). By 1500AD HC had been :assimilate:

Cuzco had a nice haul, as you'd expect from HC - 4 settled prophets, 2 GGs, and a bunch of wonders:


Here's the tech sitch:


Time to heal up and head for WvO. :ar15:
 
Map spoiler
Spoiler :

I checked for not being isolated/semiisolated. I am not sure with the difficulty of the map. Definitely tougher then last time.
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I think a lot of people would consider rushing. I am not sure if that is the right thing to do.


^
Spoiler :
I'm really curious why one would consider rushing...
Huayna has nice land (marble, gems) but is surrounded by jungle. I think that without Iron Working, it would be a pain to use his land. And researching IW ourselves is a serious detour...
So this is one reason. Waiting at least for Catapults would seem best to me.
The other reason not to rush is the south western land : we have room for a dozen cities ! That's a lot of land to grab.


My game, to 1AD (IMM) :
(I played to 1500 AD but... that's a long way)

Spoiler :
The start was something along the lines of : Ag -> Fish -> BW -> The Wheel -> AH -> Writing -> Sailing -> Myst -> Masonry

I was very concerned by the lack of easy commerce, early on. Hence Fishing 2nd.
Writing + Sailing enabled foreign trade routes AND the Great Lighthouse a.k.a. the commerce solution.

Seeing the jungle to the north made me scout in circle west, south-west, south.

The first settler was built at size 5 (size 4 would have been possible if The Wheel was researched prior to BW) and, again in an attempt to maximize commerce, the city was settled 3 tiles to the south west : on a plains hill bordering the oasis. The plains hill sheep would become accessible with the second border pop of the capital so no monument would be needed.

The third city got the copper (no monument either). Then the 4th went on the Stone to the south and the Pyramids were started in the copper city.

Meanwhile, Willem founded Confucianism which spread to me only this turn. And Huayna went something like Stonehenge, Great Wall, Oracle in Cuzco.
So we're 3 confucianist buddies. However, trades have been very limited. I've just had Alphabet and IW.


After Writing, I went for a Civil Service beeline : Litterature would be nice to have for the National Epic, but without marble I thought it would take forever to build.

I completed my wonders rather late : 625 BC for the GLH and 350 BC for the Pyramids. They were built post Mathematics.
On a bright side, with 3 relatively early libraries and no bulb, the capital has an academy and 2 settled scientists.


Screeny 25 AD (1AD = revolt to confucianism) :
Spoiler :






At that point, the objective is to get Astronomy via Liberalism to get more trade routes.
Finish the settling of the continent, getting hammer cities where I can. The last two cities will be GP farms, so are Moscow and St Petersbourg... More than enough.
Then head to riffling and wipe out Huayna and Willem. Afterwards, maybe invade another landmass or go to space...
 
@bic

Spoiler :

well he is definitely close. In usual rush distance. So I thought a lot of people will be tempted to take him out early.
But since you will have only 2 AI's as neighbor on continent i wanted to warn people to not make situation worse (going into semiisolation)
 
@ vranasm

Spoiler :
Yeah I think rushing is bad idea. This map was about as easy as the last one, but I'm not complaining since I often struggle on immortal. I finally added some screenshots to my earlier post.
 
played to 550BC, have a questions in, so if someone has time...

Spoiler :

I think i started very similar to a lot of approaches here. Settled the copper spot first, then went for the stone. Tried to get there at least some fail gold (which i got something like 27g).
Then built in capital Pyramids. Tried to get to Writing in reasonable time (which was not that easy though!).
After Writing i quickly open borders with Inca and Dutches and land connected with 2 workers.

They didn't spread religion to me though :-(.
I didn't go for GLH since I settled out of first 5 cities where I am sitting now, 3 inland.

The happy cap seems a bit problem though.
I popped in capital Great Engineer (I almost mixed it with GS for 1 turn before I realized what stupid thing I did).
Since I got GE I will not settle him, but instead will go Poly->Aesth->Lit and rush build Great Library.
After Lit probably Music.

I have my doubts about settling the land around. The happy cap is low, there are high food spots, but I have my doubts about the increase of happy cap. I could switch to HR, but for what reason?

I hope i will get soon some religion spread. I could get Drama and theaters (is this good target with the land?). And hoping for some soonish trades with 2 good techers.

screens:
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@ Vranasm :
Spoiler :
You should be able to get a Gems trade from Huayna soon. That's +1 happy. Maybe +2 if/when you get Metal Casting.
The Pyramids should net you at least +3 from Representation, or more from HR. If you intend to grow vertically, HR is obviously superior (especially for Moscow after the National Epic is built / Bureaucracy is in).

If/when you trade for Calendar, you will have +2 more happy.
If you run Representation and a specialist heavy economy, then Drama may be worth it, yes !

There is a trade off to vertical expansion, though. And that is horizontal expansion :goodjob: Do you really need to go past size 8 at 500 BC ? It may be better, but building settlers/workers is a classic way to halt growth.



The end : 1710 Dom victory.
Spoiler :
I don't remember much... The switch to Caste System occurred but... A little bit before 1000 AD, I guess.
We had the AP on our continent, but Huayna founded a religion, so I went into Free Religion when I had the opportunity. This means I didn't benefit at all from Pacifism... Being PHI, there were still 3 golden ages (no Taj Mahal : Pericles built it).

The war with Huayna started at the end of the 14th century with a mix of drafted riflemen and cavalry, a few trebuchets, one or two pikemen... Not the most orthodox war. We didn't stop from there. Both Huayna and Willem were capped in the early 16th century.
Then we invaded the other landmass. Pericles was teching well and building plenty of wonders. The others were really backwards. So we went south to Saladdin's place and then up to Toku and then Charlie.
Only Charlie and Pericles had advanced units : Pericles got to Infantry/Tanks and Charlie to Cavs/Rifles.
Despite researching Fission at the end, I didn't build many tanks let alone fight with them...
Cossaks... are fast. I pretended I used spies but it wasn't systematic at all. Naval bombardment, otoh, is super powerful. Hmmm... And I didn't bother rebuilding improvements over cottages from Saladdin and on.

Screenies :
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End screen
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Statistics
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Top 5 cities
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Moscow :
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Novgorod :
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1060 AD : Liberalism has taken Astronomy :
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The game was fun, anyways :)
Thanks for proposing the map. I'll agree with Babar, though, that it wasn't "difficult". Having so much land available almost ensures the win in itself. If one gets to develop it, that is. The most difficult part is probably the openning, up to Writing, due to the lack of commerce/happy resources. It would be easy on this map to sink our economy early on.
I'm not particularly asking for difficult games, though, don't get me wrong :goodjob:
 
@bic

Spoiler :


hmm thanks... I think growing high without caste would be waste, so yep it seems better to get stuck on size 8 with cap for awhile while producing settlers/workers.

the calendar is definitely in mind, but I sometimes struggle with trying to get everything at once and not streamlining tech path. So I should probably stick with Lit->Music->Drama path for awhile and look for trades for CoL, Calendar, Math etc.
Will see how it goes.

ah you're right there can be that resource trade. will have to check it soon. Last time I saw gems they were under jungle though.
so horizontal expansion it is. with granary+library and rep every city can be productive even on size 4(5?).

 
@yoshi: I've got a question as to why you decided to rush HC as soon as you did. It turns out brilliantly but the risk seem like >50% to lose the game to me with this choice. If HC had copper or IW/iron by that time, would it not have been game over as there is no way to defeat deity axes with a rush.

Was this a calculated risk? Usually when I try rushing at higher levels, I fall into the axe/axe trap in the capital, which means end of story.
 
Short update to 1AD

Spoiler :

well I gave the "GE" situation a thought and decided that there is still good wonder I can get... So GLH it was. Managed to get it in 7turns +-.

Then I followed the plan with Aesth->Lit->Music. After Aesth there was 2T Alpha and then trade with Dutches... that b**h traded alpha to HC the turn I finally got it from him, so I had for trades with HC only Aesth. I had to decide if I take PH+Mono or IW from him.
Well the land is jungle clear, so PH+Mono it was.
Would you believe it I got wrong religion from those AI's? HC sent to me Confu missionary...well with that he can go...you know where... Still waiting for Hindu spread...

Land expansion wasn't big, added only 1 city and 1 settler is on the way, on the other hand the inner city and coastal have all infra (granary, library and LH) so I can mass rep scientists everywhere and that is good thing since the land isn't that great for working and I lack the right improvements anyway.

I have my doubts about tech situation. Dutches have already Currency, HC has MC... everything I would liked... maybe trading Music will get me those techs?

Next target is clear... rex a bit to use the GLH.

Spoiler :








 
@welshgandalf

Spoiler :

it seems to me that monarch is too easy for you :).

You are in semiisolation with taking out Inca and that complicates trades for you. But on Monarch it's not probably that big detriment to gameplay. Didn't check save yet... just from screens


after checking the save
Spoiler :

I change my mind. The save is bad. You are seriously behind in techs (which can have something to do with the semiisolation). Why not open borders with dutches?

you really lack worker turns invested into land... too many forests around (and you are expansive! each chop is 1/4 worth more).
Not improved land (like for example those pigs in south west?).
I would argue a bit city locations. especially that fish+pigs spot is really better 1W of pigs.

45 bpt is pretty low
 
@vranasm

Spoiler :

I've only played one or two Monarch games... I get slaughtered at Immortal and my last SE attempt was on Emperor went pretty badly - so Monarch it is for me at the mo.

45bpt may sound bad, but you should've seen me some 20-30 turns ago, I was running 5bpt my economy was so awful, at times having to go & change squares I was working to ocean to avoid strikes. By all means tell me how to avoid such a terrible drop... I couldn't afford the 4 cities plus my army. Normally I would've built cottages to give me the gold but since we're not allowed.... I had to wait for the GLH. Also I had the happy cap problems you had so my cities were pretty small - only recently got IW (gems for +2 happiness with my forges and the extra commerce from the gems itself turned my economy around).

Come 1500 AD I was top in science, bringing in around 600-700 beakers so early awful research didn't affect me that badly. My thinking behind closed borders was to let me expand south without them running settlers through to claim the land. Besides, dutchies declared war on me the very next turn :rolleyes:

Re pig city 1W of pigs was not an option as the main point of the city was to get stone for pyramids. In the end, that city hit size 10 with 1 or 2 specialists spare, so it ended up a nice, if unspectacular city. I didn't see the stone south until later.

I still suck at chopping forests, I always want to keep them round for later lumbermills.... like slavery, chopping is something I have learnt is powerful since joining the forums, but I know I still don't use them often enough. Still somewhat tuck in my old ways :rolleyes:
 
@ WelshGandalf :
Spoiler :

Teched agriculture, BW for chopping, then wheel -> pottery for cheap granaries.
[...]
Around 700BC - 300BC my economy got fixed as I built the GLH, the pyramids in the old Incan capital (& switched to representation), and finally libraries came through.
Without cottages/luxury resources to raise the happy cap, Pottery = production.
Peter being expansive is a bit of a trap in a snack economy game :the real tech you want before maintenance rises too high is Writing. And that may require some care on this map : commerce sources are few.
The specialists have a very high value early on compared to say... a river tile. Writing also enables Open borders, which essentially is free commerce - as long as you have a road to your rival or a connexion via Sailing.

Put otherwise : without early gold/gems/silver/fur and without early cottages, settling + building units + researching Pottery AND Animal Husbandry before Writing is too greedy (I'm assuming AH went first).
On this particular map, I would say Pottery can be delayed quite a bit. AH is another story because it gives you some of the best tiles you could work;


Sidenote : you also delayed Fishing for a long time, which has hurt your commerce. 4 commerce from 2 fishing boats is a lot, early on. But I guess it's either the workboats or the rush. So... ok :)
The road to Writing is also about maximizing commerce but not rush-related.

From my last SE econ game I found it tough to decide when to shift from slavery to caste - both of which work well with food excesses. Any advice?
That's a very broad question and the right advices would depend on context.
1- The Spiritual trait or a golden age allow for very early uses of Caste System. I'm not familiar with that, though. Let's... just... say... those add flexibility. If you're not in one of those case, the short answer would be : not too early. I guess.

2- Slavery is straight production : it provides you with expansion capabilities (workers/settlers/military) and infrastructure.
So if your empire can/should get larger AND if your empire still needs a lot of infrastructure, Slavery will net the best result.
Expansion and Infrastructure can go a long way into the ADs. What amount of infra do you need ? When do/will you have the opportunity to grow your cities ? When does straight production become superior to Slavery ? Those are the issues.
"People" speak about a size 10 city as the threshold.
Other than that, Universities are often whipped to accelerate the building of Oxford. Afterwards, you should have the infra you want. Possibly much earlier, I assume.
Military, one can whip throughout the game.

3- Both civics work great with food surplus, right. However, they do not have the same requirements :
To support 3 scientists in a city, you're likely to work 2 tiles, which mean a happy cap at 5 minimum. Say you want 6 scientists, the needed happy cap will be 9 or 10. How many scientists you want to run partly depends on how long it will take to produce a great person. Early on, 2 or 3 may do, especially if several cities run 2-3 each. Later on, you will need much more if you want to keep popping GPs.

Now, on the requirements, consider the following :
We assume a city that would hire scientists. For the sake of multiplying science, that city has built a Library.
- What is the cost of running Slavery ? We can't run more than 2 scientists. (if we get a temple/market/courthouse, we may still run more specialists...)
- What is the cost of running Caste System ? We can't hurry production anymore.

So that's a difference in quality, much more so than quantity : infrastructure may offer the same effect as Caste System but Slavery's effect is not replaceable.
We could ask : how many scientists should a city work to make up for the loss of Slavery ? Is 3 enough ? Would it be 4 ? Or more ? How many cities would that concern accross the empire ? What about the cities that do not run specialists, do they still need Slavery ? (-> back to the issue about infrastructure first)

In the end, the time needed to produce a GP and the production you need vs the tiles you work will factor in. Also : do you need a particular GP or specifically a scientist or a merchant ? In the early game, unless you plan a bulb, a GP or another often won't make a big difference...


Disclaimer : I've used the term "need" very often. I'm not talking about absolute needs. Relative is the thing.
Hence... gotta try alternatives out :)
I hope that helps.
 
@Welsh

Spoiler :
Lumbermills are really not very good improvements except for otherwise unworkable tundra forest. Only reason I may use them is if health is a serious issue on the map, but that is rather rare. I'd rather have workshops and watermills.
 
To 425 BC - Deity / normal

Spoiler :

First attempt: I tech to construction ( bulbed math with a GS:p ) and rush Hyuana in 500 BC with axes + cats. Too bad for me Hyuana self teched fuedalism while I was building my army:mad: Scratch that game.

Second attempt: I build the great wall and block Hyuana so he can't backfill behind me. Then I start peacefully settling the huge open space to the south. Then Hyuana decides to backstab around 600 BC while my axemen are out fighting barbs:mad: and the game ends in a stalemate fighting over a town I settled. I forgot about the AI's tendency to DOW you when you settle some real estate they want.

Third attempt: This time I say, screw it, chariot rush time:king:

Dunno why I settled the corn, but I did. I went AG -> AH - Wheel -> BW -> Writing. Only settled 2 towns will take the rest.
Spoiler :


1680 BC chariot / Axe rush, not too bad.
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He isn't even close to being ready.. Some of you might think this highly risky, and usually it is. I probably should have had my spy points on Hyuana to see if he was teching iron. However I know from experience he likes to found religions and build wonders which keeps him busy in the early game. Usually.

Spoiler :


I swarm his capitol and destroy his improvements, mostly to slow down his reinforcement rate. The gold helps a little too.

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He was building a settler:lol: Lucky me. I just keep pumping out the troops. Deity AI can get a lot of archers real fast so you want to be as quick as possible.

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Cuzco falls thanks to CR axes. He managed to build stonehenge, and thank god he did it really helped.

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My axes go for his last city.

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Looks like Willem was boxed in by Hyuana, resulting in a rather low city count. I start to wonder if I could take out Willem too. I scout his territory.

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I take Hyuanas last city.

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I position my fresh troops on Willems border to take his weakest city.

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1000 BC is still not too bad for another axe rush. I see Willem has just hooked up iron ( plains mine ) and I position my chariot to smash it next turn.

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Willem whips a sword.
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I take some nasty losses but I smash Willems iron that turn. He also gets 1 spear but that's it.
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I'm bleeding gold bad. Willem only has 2 archers defending his capitol but it will be a lot more soon.
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Willem gets like 4-5 archers by the time I can bring all my troops next to his city. I attack and take huge losses but Willem is reduced to 1 archer and I will take his city the next turn.

Spoiler :


Willem whips 1 more archer but thank god for my CR3 axe.

Spoiler :


And the hagg is a sitting duck. I start whipping / chopping settlers in order to settle as many cities as I can before the strike. If you're gonna strike, strike BIG:D

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The hagg falls. And now it's an isolated diety game:lol:

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and I am settling as much land as I can and building libraries. I take my best troops and station them 1 to a city so they don't go poof.

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I go into anarchy for a turn to buy some extra time for my settlers to move.

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13 cities at 625 bc aint to shabby. If I can get each city running 2 scientists thats 78 BPT, which should get me to currency and COL in no time.

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Fishing in 6 turns:)
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@AZ

I definitely want to here the continuation of the story! Can you please post save?
Have a question...

Spoiler :

was rushing HC really that inevitable? a lot of folks on lower levels (immortal/emperor etc) could manage to get into late game with both neighbors.

I see that when you rush and are in semi-isolation it's taking the last AI better, but still...this was on Deity!!

if you striked out... get garrison troops deleted or you are allowed to have settlers and garrison troops? I know you can't have workers...
 
@AZ

I definitely want to here the continuation of the story! Can you please post save?
Have a question...

Spoiler :

was rushing HC really that inevitable? a lot of folks on lower levels (immortal/emperor etc) could manage to get into late game with both neighbors.

I see that when you rush and are in semi-isolation it's taking the last AI better, but still...this was on Deity!!

if you striked out... get garrison troops deleted or you are allowed to have settlers and garrison troops? I know you can't have workers...

Here is the save: View attachment AZ SE5 Peter BC-0425.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :

Rushing HC wasn't inevitable, I just got frustrated after being stalled in one game then backstabbed the next :) I didn't want to play another game and have him do something that screwed me again.

He's not a bad target though, he usually goes for wonders or religion. Although I've seen him go warmonger early too.

When you strike all workers / settlers disappear. You can have 1 garrison unit per town which won't disappear but all other troops go poof, I think the ones with the lowest exp go first. Great people / generals never go poof.
 
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