Sexist Game or Sandbox?

[Lexicus]

While I have no beef with this one (I am sure you didn't expect me to defend Paradox ), that is like saying that anyone who uses the "Molon Lave" (come and take them/it) meme has to be fascist. Historically it was just a phrase uttered by the Spartans at Thermopylae.

I suppose it would be a bit of a waste of time to point out that I didn't say anything close to that, I just said I have seen it used as a fascist meme before. The fact that it is used in a video game community does not somehow invalidate that fact. And as I believe you yourself have noted in the past there are certainly fascists who are also fans of Crusader Kings II.

 

[Kyriakos]

I suppose it would be a bit of a waste of time to point out that I didn't say anything close to that, I just said I have seen it used as a fascist meme before. The fact that it is used in a video game community does not somehow invalidate that fact. And as I believe you yourself have noted in the past there are certainly fascists who are also fans of Crusader Kings II.

Paradox forums obviously have an unprecedented percentage of open fascist/nazis for a computer game forum. That much is known.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've seen literal fascists (like, literal members of groups like Identity Evropa) post Deus Vult memes as fascist propaganda, so I'm gonna nope this

Tiny % of people using a word in one context does not extend that context to common usage.

Groups like that ruin everything.

They ruin it because busybodies, snowflakes, corporate shills, and the weak-minded LET them "ruin" it. If alt right set "car" = "key word for mass murder", are we going to stop using the word "car", too?

How about not letting the alt right dictate speech? That seemed to be a goal over in the other thread, so why bow down to their behaviors in this context?

Paradox forums obviously have an unprecedented percentage of open fascist/nazis for a computer game forum. That much is known.

More than most game forums, still a tiny % of posters there. Still vastly outnumbered by fanboys/white knights (for the company itself) for example.

 

[Synobun]

For me, it's a matter of scale. Broad vs. niche. OK sign being co-opted by white supremacists (even though the origin of that was a troll)? Screw 'em, they can't have it. Deus vult and remove kebab being Paradox memes? Not a big deal to just remove that from the meme repertoire and make it an easy signpost for Nazism and pro-ethnic purge sentiments. The innocent use is so niche that it's not really worth a fight to maintain that innocence.

I mean, I've exhaled a little harder out of my nose at crusade memes and such, but I can't say it's so essential to meme culture and my life that I'd be particularly aggrieved if it wasn't around anymore. People who genuinely believe in the underlying sentiment have taken it over and use it unironically. Is the meme important enough to defend? It seems simpler to just let them have it. Makes it easier to ostracize them, and we don't actually lose anything by not having those memes anymore.

 

[Kyriakos]

More than most game forums, still a tiny % of posters there. Still vastly outnumbered by fanboys/white knights (for the company itself) for example.

Maybe now - maybe not. Back when I was posting there (4 years ago) the fascist crowd was very large. Maybe they just were more vocal, but it wasn't just a few people sporadically posting.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe now - maybe not. Back when I was posting there (4 years ago) the fascist crowd was very large. Maybe they just were more vocal, but it wasn't just a few people sporadically posting.

Were you in like, HOI 4 off-topic or something? I'm just not seeing evidence of this in the forums of their actual games. Admittedly I don't post in their OT much (only a few times total since I joined) so maybe I missed some outburst just before & after HOI 4. I could certainly see how a WW2 themed game that lets you play Germany would attract that for a while. But where I was posting, it's not something I observed and Pdox game subforum posts outnumber OT by ~2:1.

 

[Kyriakos]

Were you in like, HOI 4 off-topic or something? I'm just not seeing evidence of this in the forums of their actual games. Admittedly I don't post in their OT much (only a few times total since I joined) so maybe I missed some outburst just before & after HOI 4. I could certainly see how a WW2 themed game that lets you play Germany would attract that for a while. But where I was posting, it's not something I observed and Pdox game subforum posts outnumber OT by ~2:1.

I was always either in the EUIII forum (but there mods regulated stuff) or in the OT forums (eg for history or art).

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe now - maybe not. Back when I was posting there (4 years ago) the fascist crowd was very large. Maybe they just were more vocal, but it wasn't just a few people sporadically posting.

HoI series is notorious for it. WW2 games attract alt right like flies.

I noticed it 10 years ago with HoI2, couldn't get into HoI 3 and 4.

We booted one player from MP because he was vocal about Jews and that group tolerated a lot (eastern Europeans and Turks are interesting).

EuIV was my thing followed by Stellaris then CK2.

Imagine Victoria 2 another game I couldn't get into. It has art with confederate soldiers flying the battle flag engaging Redcoats flying the Union Jack.

 

[Kyriakos]

I can easily imagine Victoria (at least Victoria 1) being full of fascists too, if one goes by that incredibly ridiculous VIP mod, where regardless of what you did Germany would form circa 1871 (even if it was in the process of being annihilated by France ).

 

[Zardnaar]

Idk played 1 game if Vicky 2 as the CSA didn't know what I was doing and steamrolled the union.

 

[Akka]

Top rated Steam comments/reviews are much more predictive of game quality and honest than nearly the entirety of the game "journalism" industry. There is a lot of trash to filter, but at least Steam has a feature to filter it and those reviews are free + by people who know how to play the game.

I've found that the best approximation for the quality of a game (at least according to my taste) tend to be user Metacritics aggregate. It's not perfect of course, it's littered with useless reviews ("0 because I can't use my favourite controler on it !" "10 because it's awesome because it has explosions !"), but somehow, through statistical magic, I've found it was a pretty good predictor.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've found that the best approximation for the quality of a game (at least according to my taste) tend to be user Metacritics aggregate. It's not perfect of course, it's littered with useless reviews ("0 because I can't use my favourite controler on it !" "10 because it's awesome because it has explosions !"), but somehow, through statistical magic, I've found it was a pretty good predictor.

Here's my guidelines. Mostly for movies.

1. Be aware if somethings being review bombed.

2. Be aware if it's a critic friendly media. Historical drama for Oscars, progressive friendly etc

Metacritics decent enough for games.

Picking an example of Star Trek Discovery. It's better than the review bombing indicates BUT it's not as good as the critic score. It's more average.

 

[Lexicus]

Tiny % of people using a word in one context does not extend that context to common usage.

It's funny, because it is near-certain that the tiny % of people are using it to refer to CK2 while the "common usage" is now as a fascist meme. r/theDonald and pol on ***** are both, I would guess, much larger communities than Crusader Kings 2 fandom.

Were you in like, HOI 4 off-topic or something? I'm just not seeing evidence of this in the forums of their actual games. Admittedly I don't post in their OT much (only a few times total since I joined) so maybe I missed some outburst just before & after HOI 4. I could certainly see how a WW2 themed game that lets you play Germany would attract that for a while. But where I was posting, it's not something I observed and Pdox game subforum posts outnumber OT by ~2:1.

Remember how you didn't understand the connotations of the phrase "your betters"?? That episode is one reason I think your "not seeing evidence of this" demonstrates your lack of political sophistication rather than a lack of fascists in these communities.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

He thinks the people talking lovingly about eliminating the moslem are merely joking, in the same way anti semites are merely "joking" when they talk about eliminating Jews or other groups they view as undesirables.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's funny, because it is near-certain that the tiny % of people are using it to refer to CK2 while the "common usage" is now as a fascist meme. r/theDonald and pol on ***** are both, I would guess, much larger communities than Crusader Kings 2 fandom.

Neither of these are statistically large portions of the total human population. To most sane people, it means either nothing (because they aren't familiar with it) or "God wills it" and nothing more than that absent context.

Remember how you didn't understand the connotations of the phrase "your betters"?? That episode is one reason I think your "not seeing evidence of this" demonstrates your lack of political sophistication rather than a lack of fascists in these communities.

Or, if you're paying attention you'd probably notice that he and I were posting in different subforums. Topics discussed here are wildly different from Civ 6 general discussion or strategy & tips. Likely same for Pdoxplaza.

He thinks the people talking lovingly about eliminating the moslem are merely joking, in the same way anti semites are merely "joking" when they talk about eliminating Jews or other groups they view as undesirables.

The games let you do crusades/jihads/great holy wars with impunity, doesn't care. But in my case I'm an equal-opportunity purger in games. It's neither "real" nor is it a "joke".

Incoherent snowflake logic is not something anybody should take seriously with games, least of all developers. "Deus Vult" does not objectively mean "X group dogwhistle". It means "God wills it", and if Pdox had a spine they'd ignore crying over that. But Pdox seems lacking in both spine and consistent application of any ethical principles, which is probably why they're suppressing information from current/former QA employees about the work experience there to the tune of banning people and deleting stuff.

 

[Lexicus]

Or, if you're paying attention you'd probably notice that he and I were posting in different subforums. Topics discussed here are wildly different from Civ 6 general discussion or strategy & tips. Likely same for Pdoxplaza.

I can't claim that I was paying attention, but if you were posting in different subforums why continue to say things like this:

Neither of these are statistically large portions of the total human population. To most sane people, it means either nothing (because they aren't familiar with it) or "God wills it" and nothing more than that absent context.

Maybe, just maybe, you are ignorant of this usage of the phrase and other people know something you don't?
Maybe?

 

[Arakhor]

That work experience thread was locked, not deleted. It's pretty poor information suppression if they don't even delete the thread in question.

 

[Lexicus]

That work experience thread was locked, not deleted. It's pretty poor information suppression if they
don't even delete the thread in question.

On the other hand it's standard practice in the US for employers to engage in these kinds of Stalinist practices to prevent employees from discussing their work situations with one another and realizing they might have a, er, collective problem...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe, just maybe, you are ignorant of this usage of the phrase and other people know something you don't?

"Maybe just maybe" is a dogwhistle for domestic terror. --> Similar "logic" to complaints about Deus Vult outside of specific sites.

Weren't you the one talking about how context matters?

That work experience thread was locked, not deleted. It's pretty poor information suppression if they don't even delete the thread in question.

No, they deleted some stuff. If you look on Reddit some of the links get 404'd when going to Pdox, but were cached & can be accessed elsewhere.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Ah yes, that phrase that was used specifically in the context of attacking Muslims has nothing to do with attacking muslims.... logic!

I guess in the same way Arbeit Macht Frei is totally removed from the context and history of concentration camps right?

Really interesting to see how far you'll go in defending what are dogwhistles used by the alt-right.