Sexist Game or Sandbox?

[Kyriakos]

He thinks the people talking lovingly about eliminating the moslem are merely joking, in the same way anti semites are merely "joking" when they talk about eliminating Jews or other groups they view as undesirables.

Well, although I wouldn't use the phrase "remove [arabic fast food]", it isn't about "moslems" in general. It has to tie to christian-islam wars related to the levant. So it wouldn't be used to refer to the majority of muslims in the first place.
I suspect it mostly is used in the context of crusades, ottomans and maybe the reconquista in Iberia (?).

Wouldn't make much sense to see it used about Pakistan or Afganistan, for example. Though going by how east asians view things, it may be used in SE Asia (assuming they even know of the western meme )

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Did you literally ignore my previous posts about the origins of "Remove Kebab"?

The meme is a reference to the Serbian Genocide of Bosniak Muslims.

 

[Kyriakos]

Did you literally ignore my previous posts about the origins of "Remove Kebab"?

The meme is a reference to the Serbian Genocide of Bosniak Muslims.

I answered why this isn't that important I will edit this post shortly, with the copy/paste of my specific reply to your post.

edit: here it is:

While technically (???) it might originate from that, it should go without saying that the phrase isn't by majority used to refer to Serbia or that war. It is used generically about christian-muslim wars, often about the ottoman empire but (AFAIK) not just muslims in the balkans. With Paradox it would obviously be all over the place in those nice Siege of Vienna threads

Tbh, Serbia suffered genocide of its own people in the yugoslav wars too, so it may not be a good idea to single it out. There was the genocide by Croatia, under Tudman.

 

[shadowplay]

Free medieval incest simulator.

Gonna pick up holy fury, conclave and monks and mystics.

I can become a satanist and marry a horse.

The great thing about marrying a horse is that you're always going to have a ride home.

 

[Kyriakos]

The great thing about marrying a horse is that you're always going to have a ride home.

If you are Loki enough.

 

[Farm Boy]

Shoe shopping is pretty easy too.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Ah yes, that phrase that was used specifically in the context of attacking Muslims has nothing to do with attacking muslims.... logic!

I guess in the same way Arbeit Macht Frei is totally removed from the context and history of concentration camps right?

Really interesting to see how far you'll go in defending what are dogwhistles used by the alt-right.

To be fair, it's a slippery slope. "Deus Vult" comes from the Crusades (yet not quite in the light you imply), which are significantly represented in CRUSADER Kings. There's nothing stopping the same loons from just adopting a different meme of a similar flavour. It's not a battle you can win.

God forbid they start calling themselves "crusaders" or something, and jumpy Paradox feels forced to rename the series "Warrior Kings" or something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult

Disseminated in the form of hashtags and internet memes, Deus vult has enjoyed popularity with members of the alt-right because of its perceived representation of the clash of civilizations between the Christian West and the Islamic world.[12][13] However, historical analysis has suggested that Crusaders were more strongly influenced by the desire for salvation from sin than opposition to Muslims.[14][15]

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I answered why this isn't that important I will edit this post shortly, with the copy/paste of my specific reply to your post.

edit: here it is:

You don't get it do you? The meme itself is a reference to genocide during the Yugoslavian conflict and i don't care for your attempts to explain away what is essentially a joke about groups of people being rounded up and shot because of who they are, because it's gross and disgusting. It's offensive to my sensibilities as a decent human being, one whose mind has sunk to the level of unironically posting Anti-islamic propaganda. The meme has been totally co-opted by white nationalists and any reasonable person would distance themselves from it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ah yes, that phrase that was used specifically in the context of attacking Muslims has nothing to do with attacking muslims.... logic!

I guess in the same way Arbeit Macht Frei is totally removed from the context and history of concentration camps right?

Really interesting to see how far you'll go in defending what are dogwhistles used by the alt-right.

You are the one who seems interested in letting the alt right's words and actions control people.

I'm not sure why you're in bed with them when it comes to giving them "dogwhistles" and extra consideration, but I won't cooperate with that weirdness.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Your denial of reality doesn't change the fact that it is used by the Alt-right as a meme and a dogwhistle, both of which you are okay with, as well as it's continued use.

 

[Kyriakos]

You don't get it do you? The meme itself is a reference to genocide during the Yugoslavian conflict and i don't care for your attempts to explain away what is essentially a joke about groups of people being rounded up and shot because of who they are, because it's gross and disgusting. It's offensive to my sensibilities as a decent human being, one whose mind has sunk to the level of unironically posting Anti-islamic propaganda. The meme has been totally co-opted by white nationalists and any reasonable person would distance themselves from it.

For the n-nth time: how a meme starts (assuming it indeed even started with Serbia in the first part of the yugoslav war) isn't that important, surely, when compared to how it is actually used and what it is known for. For example, the alt-right frog meme started as something entirely unrelated to the alt-right. Going by your obvious fallacy we shouldn't think of Pepe the frog as alt-right at all, but some neutral comic

It is rather obvious that the "remove k__b" meme isn't famous for being about Serbia or the genocide in Bosnia. It is used primarily for what I said, general levant-based christian-muslim conflicts.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

No, it does matter because the meme itself is a reference to a historical act of genocide. It becomes even harder for you to defend when you add into the mix the fact that white supremacists use it as well.

The literal video the meme comes from is a nationalistic propaganda video expressing a desire to rid Serbian controlled bosnia of Bosniaks and Croats, by violent means, you can continue to dance around that fact but it is a fact and is a reason why white nationalists use it (i suspect they could care less about croats, if they view them as white at all)

 

[Kyriakos]

No, it does matter because the meme itself is a reference to a historical act of genocide. It becomes even harder for you to defend when you add into the mix the fact that white supremacists use it as well.

The literal video the meme comes from is a nationalistic propaganda video expressing a desire to rid Serbian controlled bosnia of Bosniaks and Croats, by violent means, you can continue to dance around that fact but it is a fact and is a reason why white nationalists use it (i suspect they could care less about croats, if they view them as white at all)

I think that upon reflection you will identify that you aren't correct in this. Furthermore, Croatia run its own genocide of serbs in that same war (in Kraina). Even bosnian muslims did their own side-genocides when given the opportunity. And a few years later there was, of course, Kosovo, with genocide from both sides, ending up in the near complete explusion of serbs, which also can count as a genocide and was done by a muslim people (kosovar albanians are almost all muslims).
But all that isn't the issue here, cause, as noted, the remove kb meme isn't known for Serbia or the yugoslav wars and surely you are aware that not even 5% of those who use it refer to Serbia, right? :/

Anyway, as I said, I don't use the phrase, but it is incorrect to claim that anyone who uses it is genocidal. The context does play a role. Also, useful to note that genocide isn't in tautology with racism, let alone (just) bias. Everyone has their biases, but not all are some type of monster

Btw, your note on croats is funny, given they are full white nationalist and were the only group in ww2 which was both officially (italian) fascist and (german) nazi, and of course run major scale genocides of serbs. Google "Ustase" and marvel at all that. Even ww2 (muslim) albanians had an SS legion, the SS Skanderbeg ( ).

 

[Lexicus]

"Maybe just maybe" is a dogwhistle for domestic terror. --> Similar "logic" to complaints about Deus Vult outside of specific sites.

No, it's not similar logic at all. I have no idea how you can possibly believe such a thing. In fact, it is closer to the opposite of what you imply here: "Deus Vult" might not be a far-right dogwhistle on one specific site but outside that site it is far more likely to be.

Weren't you the one talking about how context matters?

Well, yes, and it seems I can't stop talking about it because once again you've made an argument that focuses exclusively on what you call "logic" but is actually just your impression of the situation, and completely ignores all the relevant context...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

"Some bad people use this word as an anti-Islamic catch phrase" --> "therefore this word shouldn't be used by other people generally, or in the context of a game where its usage is consistent with history in the period the game represents".

No. When you do this, you bow to the alt right. You let how they choose to use words dictate what you believe the world at large should say. That is no longer a "dogwhistle", because everyone can hear it.

 

[Lexicus]

"Some bad people use this word as an anti-Islamic catch phrase" --> "therefore this word shouldn't be used by other people generally, or in the context of a game where its usage is consistent with history in the period the game represents".

I haven't actually said anyone should not use the phrase in any context, so I have no idea what you are talking about. I have simply been trying to establish that it is, in fact, used as a far-right meme.

No. When you do this, you bow to the alt right. You let how they choose to use words dictate what you believe the world at large should say. That is no longer a "dogwhistle", because everyone can hear it.

So, I expect you'll be leading the charge to reclaim the swastika from the Nazis any day now?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I haven't actually said anyone should not use the phrase in any context, so I have no idea what you are talking about. I have simply been trying to establish that it is, in fact, used as a far-right meme.

I don't deny it's a far-right meme. I am miffed about Pdoxs bowing to the far right though, and that there is a pattern of crap like this lately where something unnecessarily gets branded a "hate symbol" or some crap.

So, I expect you'll be leading the charge to reclaim the swastika from the Nazis any day now?

You...are aware that in some parts of the world, it can't even be "reclaimed" because it was never primarily a "nazi" symbol in the first place right? I actually do have problems with that being universally branded a hate symbol regardless of context. The nazis appropriated it in the first place, why does only the nazi usage count?

 

[Zardnaar]

He thinks the people talking lovingly about eliminating the moslem are merely joking, in the same way anti semites are merely "joking" when they talk about eliminating Jews or other groups they view as undesirables.

Never claimed anything of the sort.

It never got used in the context you're describing a( by us or anyone else I saw) was banned it still got used on teamspeak and discord

You can also play Muslim and jyhad Western Europe. You can reverse colonise the UK as Mali. You can reestablish the Kingdom of Israel as a Jewish state.

It got used as a shorthand for the Ottoman Empire. The Turkish players we had used it.

They banned kebab not remove kebab from memory. I'm not denying that it got used as a meme but it did get used as a derogatory term and got banned on the forums because of that.
This was 4 or 5 years ago iirc.

 

[Zardnaar]

To be fair, it's a slippery slope. "Deus Vult" comes from the Crusades (yet not quite in the light you imply), which are significantly represented in CRUSADER Kings. There's nothing stopping the same loons from just adopting a different meme of a similar flavour. It's not a battle you can win.

God forbid they start calling themselves "crusaders" or something, and jumpy Paradox feels forced to rename the series "Warrior Kings" or something.

We have a rugby team her called The Crusaders and they had people in costume ride around on horses with shields etc.

After the shooting there was calls to change the name. They pulled the horse riders and corporate speak said "we'll look into it".

We still have a rugby team called The Crusaders. Not PC but you go to the countries people complaining about it come from and you can openly buy copies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (outside academia) .

Cloud don't travel to Asia if the swastika offends you.

 

[Gorbles]

Of course TheMeInTeam is defending the reclamation of a Nazi symbol by invoking whataboutism. Lexicus specified "from the Nazis", you know? They didn't specify "from a random unrelated group that don't use it as a hate symbol".

Also, notably, it hasn't universally been branded a hate symbol. It has, in specific countries given specific context, been labelled so. Here's a handy link, from an incredibly safe source (last paragraph on the page, no internal anchor tags, sorry). In day-to-day conversations, it's normally easy enough to work out if someone meant the pre-Nazi Indo-European symbol for good fortune, because it's usually immediately apparent from context.

On the Internet? Comparatively harder. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't trend to believing in the benefit of the doubt, because a) a lot of games shy away from historical re-enactments of factions in World War II, and b) it completely removes the possible context of it not being Nazi in origin, because it's basically inapplicable to any strategy game in its original form (outside of some vague lore or aesthetic theming for a particular minor faction, I guess).

It also gives cover to these invocations as dogwhistles. If you're opposed to letting the alt right, or any similar grouping, win in their use of these phrases, you shouldn't be giving anyone the benefit of the doubt. You should be happily joining in in exposing such attempts at wordplay. I mean, you almost had it. If something is no longer a dogwhistle, then yes, everyone knows exactly what someone means when they say it. This is good, because it removes that benefit of the doubt. You are then emphatically sure that that person is, or isn't, a neo-Nazi (or someone similarly aligned to that cause). Is it a shame that that language is then lost, in the modern context? As someone with a great interest in language and etymology, absolutely. But it'd be more of a shame if hate groups could continue to use it, while masking their efforts under the guise of normalcy. That twisting of the language is on them - they chose to do it, to cover their hate. It's not anyone elses' fault.