SGFN-05: India Stomps the World

[Northen Wolf]

First fight in different play-styles.
(Simple option
I'd go between of your two opinions and make 1 settler nd' 3 military units.

1) Land is still free, more land= more everything.

2) We have to be able to hold land, for that we need offense units, they can be moved where there is a need for 'defense'.

3) We need to get Germany iron (if that is only source they have), horsies vs ironmen = auchie)

4) Workers help us to increase our production, allowing more units to be produced from same land area.

5) We need to pwn all AI's

 

[anaxagoras]

I see a quite a discrepancy between what we're building and what we want to do. Looking at the save we're now working from, I'm counting:
* 3 towns building a settler
* 2 towns building a worker
* only 1 town building a unit; Madras, and it's only doing 2 shields a turn

We've been playing peacenik style from the beginning and we still are. The players that now want to attack Germany are the same players that were in favour of peaceful expansion earlier. How can you advocate building granaries and settlers yet at the same time say you want to attack your opponants? Beats me.

I presume I'm one of the "peaceful expansion" players referred to, so I will explain my thinking:

Peaceful expansion is necessary in the beginning to form a solid economic base. In my view, if enough surplus food is available to justify them, two granaries are important to early expansion: one for a settler pump, and one for a worker pump. We have those, now, so we should have no trouble keeping our empire expanding and the tiles worked.

At the same time, however, we need to be building military. But we don't need to build it everywhere. Any city with a barracks should be producing military unless there is a solid reason not to. I don't have a current screenshot (anyone want to provide that?), and I wasn't able to take a look at the save last night, so I'm shooting from the hip, here, but I would say that both Bombay and Madras should be producing military right now. And why is the production in Madras so low? The town is surrounded by plains. It should be producing more than two uncorrupted shields. If it isn't, it should be micro-managed to do better. Also, Bangalore is building the SoZ, which counts as military construction. We just don't reap the benefits right away. Bangalore should build a barracks and then additional military as soon as the SoZ completes, which should help a lot with our war mongering.

In other words, I agree with you that 3 settlers and 2 workers is probably not the best mix at the moment. We do need settlers and workers so we can capture the nearby luxuries and enable our towns to get larger, but we don't need them all at once. I would rather have the barracks towns use specialists for happiness control rather than build settlers or workers.

[X-posted with Northern Wolf.]

 

[Optional]

Here's a screenshot (Sorry for the fuzzy colours).
Production in Madras is so low because:
* the terrain hasn't been improved yet
* 1 citizen is a specialist; because of lack of MP Madras will riot when more citizens go working tiles

Just to clear up: I had no intention of attacking peaceful building in itself. I was only observing that that is what we're doing, and that our play style at the moment is at odds with planning an early offensive war.

Because I'm seeing settlers and workers being buillt, and almost no units, I made a case for expanding in the direction of Germany, as opposed to sending units over in an attempt to take a town. At the moment we are already compromising our production because of lack of MP (citizens are clowns and specialists).

 

[Bucephalus]

Curious.... in your screenshot India is playing in 'Green', yet on the minimap their territory is 'Orange'.

 

[anaxagoras]

If you look closely, the figure bases are orange, too, and the border is green and orange. I agree, though - the mismatch between the clothing color and the territory color is odd.

 

[Optional]

Curious.... in your screenshot India is playing in 'Green', yet on the minimap their territory is 'Orange'.

It's a camouflage tactic to confuse the Germans, you never do that?
No, something must have happened with India's palette file, I need to cure that.

 

[TheOverseer714]

With a well-oiled empire and proper military management, only a few cities actually need to build military units, the rest provide support. 2-3 armory towns can build enough units to more than cover our military needs. We are near the end of our REX phase, so we can now start focusing on military needs. So towns that aren't building infrastructure or units can build artillery units. We will keep the settler factory going a while longer, as there is still quite a bit of empty space left. In other news, akk47 is too busy to participate, so we can officially take him off the roster, which means I am up, got the save, will begin play tonight.

 

[anaxagoras]

Good to know. Thanks, Overseer, and good luck. I'd say that in addition to our anti-German expedition, we need to put a priority on capturing the open luxuries. The spices are ours for the taking as soon as a settler is ready, and as I recall, dyes are out to our east. If those are still unclaimed, we should send a reasonably well-defended expedition to seize them. Since this is in the direction of Greece, I would recommend considering brokering a peace deal with Greece before heading out that way.

 

[Optional]

I agree with these points.
2 or 3 barracks towns would do for a while. We seem to be heading for 4 now: Bombay, Madras, Bangalore and Lahore. That's plenty. I would probably switch the settler build in Bombay to a Horse. Our problem at the moment is our armory towns aren't functioning as such.
Hooking up the luxuries will require workers. There's 1 worker hacking away at the jungle on the spices tile, due to finish in 16 turns. I believe the dyes are situated in similarly difficult terrain; it'll take a while to hook that up.
I believe we should make more of an effort to improve our terrain before switching to a Republic. Ideally we have our worked tiles roaded before that, and about half our towns up to size 7 to deal with the unit support. You don't want to wait with building up a workforce until you're already in Republic, because then the unit support will kill you.
Probably by the time Overseer has finished his turnset we will have researched Republic, but I would probably advise taking a close look at our empire first before switching government.

 

[anaxagoras]

I agree about the government switching. I'm not even sure Republic is such a great idea for a AW-type game, depending on how things go. It might be possible, but whether or not it is the best way to go is something else again. Let's evaluate that when the decision comes up.

 

[TheOverseer714]

We can go Republic when we are ready, and if WW gets out hand, we can go Monarchy. India is Religious, so gets the 2-turn anarchy, a luxury most AW games you don't get. Therefore, Republic is a gamble worth taking when the time is right, which can be verified with CivAssist 2. I would want 2 luxes hooked up before even thinking about it. The other thing that needs thought about is the Forbidden Palace. I would say a good sized city on a river with plenty of shields, but not too close to the capital, in the direction of conquest. Best candidate: Calcutta. Second best: not decided.

 

[Optional]

Forbidden Palace...Best candidate: Calcutta.

I like that type of thinking. Calcutta is a good spot. Why not switch to a prebuild straight away?

 

[Bucephalus]

I like that type of thinking. Calcutta is a good spot. Why not switch to a prebuild straight away?

lurker's comment:

Would it not be best to use a MGL for it? There should be plenty coming in an AW type game, and it would take a long time to and build it by hand; and meanwhile it's not producing military.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I am hoping for SGL's, but we can try to build it the old fashioned way if none come. Right now, we arent fighting much, but that will soon change. Just need to get some horsemen cranked out, I agree that archers aren't getting it, just too slow, weak and can't retreat. Hopefully, Germany's first wave doesn't kill us, we are so weak right now.

 

[anaxagoras]

Um, aren't we strong compared to the Germans? That's what I remember, at least.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Yeah, we have alot more workers than they do..... My first encounter was not so good, an eArcher of theirs smoked our vSpear. When I moved our stack toward Munich it met a stack coming our way, next turn there'll be 4 archers and a horse at a town defended by archers. Hopefully my attacks will whittle that down.

 

[anaxagoras]

Urgh. May the RNG gods be kind.

 

[Optional]

We were strong compared to the Portuguese, average compared to the Germans.
I wouldn't mind hearing some more opinions on how to build the Forbidden Palace. I didn't think about the MGL option, but personally I would still rather have an Army for it.
I reckon building the Forbidden Palace in Calcutta will cost us some 60 to 70 turns, maybe a bit longer if we wait until our corruption is already at a higher level.

 

[anaxagoras]

Calcutta seems like the best place for the FP to me. It has a river location, and enough production in the long run not to take forever. It would probably help to settle nearby so we can get more workable tiles without having to build culture, but that's not a priority. We may need to mine a plains or two, rather than irrigate. We should start it soon, I think, to reap maximum benefits. I pretty much agree that in an AW game, the first MGL should make an army, so we can get started on the Epic.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I have played my turn-set. The war is slow, but everything else is okay. We are building horses, and next turn should bring our first ancient cavalry Next turn also brings us Republic, but we should not revolt, our units would choke us. We need more towns, more roads and more luxes. If possible, we might even trade for Monarchy and revolt to that until we get our country built up. Research path can be Currency> Feudalism> Monotheism> Chivalry over the next few turn-sets. Anyway, here is my turn-log:

Spoiler :

Pre-Flight: CivAssist 2, Word running. Open the save, look things over. Settler factory is a bit out of kilter, but within decent tolerance. Switch Bombay to a horseman. Move Archer stack toward Munich, Germany’s Iron.

Civilian units:
Settler 1
Workers 11

Military units:
Warriors 5
Archers 10
Spearmen 2
Catapults 2

Ships:
Curragh 1

Support:
Units: 33
Allowed: 31
Support cost: 2 gpt

Press enter=>

IBT: Hoplite shows up out of fog near unescorted settler.
Germany allies Aztecs against the Iroquois.
Delhi Settler=>Settler.
Calcutta Worker=>Palace(FP pre-build).

Turn 1, 975 BC: Move some workers, move settler toward warrior, warrior toward settler. Get cats heading toward Hoplite.

IBT: Looks like the archer stack will meet a German archer stack (3 regular, 1 elite).

Turn 2, 950 BC: Move new settler to claim the Spices. Move units to challenge fog hoplite.

IBT: Hoplite wants to pillage our horses.
Portugal and Iroquois ally against Aztecs.
Iroquois promptly make peace with Aztecs
Babylon settler appears, looks like they want our tobacco.
German stack splits.
Bombay Horseman=>Horseman.
Lahore Barracks=> Spearman.

Turn 3, 925 BC: Settler factory needs 1 cow and 1 irrigated plains to be a 4 turner. Make the adjustments.
Civ Assist 2 tells us Portugal is rich, check for peace deal, can get 160 from them, so I take it.
Kill a barb with rArcher, losing 1 hp, but promotes.
Move archer to protect horses, move horse to guide hoplite into a better kill spot.

IBT: German eArcher redlines killing our spear, they are going to be tough, I count 4 rArchers and a horseman near Jaipur.
Hoplite now likes our cow.

Turn 4, 900 BC: Kill 1 rArcher, but will defend vs another. Position catapults to hit our wandering hoplite next turn.

IBT: German stack turns bac, but 1 rArcher wins clean vs our fortified vArcher
Delhi Settler=>Settler.
Kohlapur Warrior=>Worker.

Turn 5, 875 BC: eArcher kills rArcher clean.
Cats go 1 of 3 vs hoplite, vHorse wins -2hp.
Settle Hyderabad near Babylon=>Temple.

IBT: German rArcher backs away from healthy eArcher.
We get the Forbidden Palace notification.

Turn 6, 850 BC: Move eArcher back into Jaipur.

IBT: Bombay Horseman=>Horseman.
Yippee! The Statue of Zeus finshes! Bangalore SoZ=>Barracks.
Lahore Spearman=>Horseman.
Karachi Settler=>Galley.

Turn 7, 825 BC: Move new horse and spearman south. Road second Ivory.

IBT: 2 Greek Archers show up near Calcutta. Vikings build Colossus.

Turn 8, 800 BC: Move 2 horses toward Calcutta. Move archer stack out toward Munich again.

IBT: Greek archers move up to Calcutta.
Madras Horseman=>Horseman.
Kohlapur Worker=>Catapult..

Turn 9, 775 BC: New horse from Kohlapur kills one rArcher clean, another loses 1 hp killing the other rArcher.
Settle Bengal NE of Bangalore. =>Warrior. Settling exposes a Greek archer, scramble to get some troops there.

IBT: As expected, Greek archer decides to visit empty Bengal.
Other bad new, Germany and Iroquois sign a peace treaty.
German archer kills our southern scout warrior.
Delhi Settler>Settler.


Turn 10, 3500 BC: Move a horse and archer into Bengal, if Greek archer attacks, at least the city won’t be destroyed.
Archer stack meets the evil German eArcher.
Buy Iroquois into alliance vs Germany for 3 gpt and 55 gold.

Cities:12
Delhi: Size 4, growth in 2, Settler in 5 turns.
Bombay: Size 7, growth in 13, Horseman in 3 turns.
Bangalore: Size 7, growth in 5, Barracks in 1 turns.
Madras: Size 6, growth in 8, Horseman in 5 turns.
Calcutta: Size 4, growth in 6, Forbidden Palace in 59 turns.
Lahore: Size 3, growth in 1, Horseman in 3 turns.
Kohlapur: Size 2, growth in 1, Catapult in 6 turns.
Karachi: Size 3, growth in 4, Galley in 12 turns.
Jaipur: Size 1, growth in 3, Walls in 13 turns.
Hyderabad: Size 1, growth in 5, Temple in 25 turns.
Bengal: Size 1, growth in 19, Warrior in 9 turns.

Civilian units:
Settlers 2
Workers 13

Military units:
Warriors 5
Archers 9
Spearmen 2
Horsemen 4
Catapults 3

Ships:
Curragh 1

Support:
Units: 39
Allowed: 44
Support cost: 0 gpt

Contacts: 7
1. Germany-Permanent War
2. Babylon-Peace
3. Greeks-War
4. Aztecs-Peace
5. Portuguese-Peace
6. Iroquois-Peace
7. Vikings-Peace

Research
Republic, 1 turns at +18gpt

Sliders
4/3/3, 111 gold +18 gpt.

Two pictures, first is a zoom out of our holdings, second is a tactical overview.

Spoiler :

Updated roster:
1: TheOverseer714=> just played
2: Optional=>up
3: Jorgo Mono=>on deck
4: Anaxagoras=>warming up
5: Northen Wolf=> waiting
6: Rodent=> waiting longer
7: ThinkTank=> Honored lurker


The save: