SGFN-05: India Stomps the World

[Rodent]

Should'nt we have just signed peace with the Greeks? if we are lucky they might give some gold.

 

[Northen Wolf]

We've been war w/ Greeks for long time, they were OK with peace, at the end of my turn.
They might even give us something, making peace also frees few units from greek defense (ofcourse little 'mobile defense' (horsies) should be in area)

 

[Optional]

Right, got the game, but I will probably like some input from the team before I play.

Looks like it got a little nervous on the Greek front in your turnset, Overseer! Although we have considered signing peace with them before, we've signed peace with Portugal now, so only Greece is giving us war happiness.
I would like to hear your opinions on this:
* are we continueing the war with Greece for war happiness?
* If we do, are we getting Babylon in an alliance against them, which would be quite easy, as Babylon is behind in tech?

Good to see the Iroquois making progress against the Germans! Germans have not got Horses anymore, that must be the work of the Iroquois.

Things that I plan to do; considerations that I have:
* I'm unlikely to attack Munich with those 4 Archers. Only a very lucky RNG would make them destroy the town, but then a couple of turns later there will be a new German town there, as we didn't bring a settler in our stack to found a town of our own there. I don't think Germany will have the chance to become stronger in the meantime with the Iroquois warring against them. Only bad thing is, Germany is scientific, so they can have Pikes quite soon. Germany's Iron should still be our first war trophy.
* Developing towards the Dyes. We want to beat Portugal to it. Probably send next settler over to it. If we don't send all our units to Germany we have more chance to get the Dyes in.
* After the next settler I would like to see some workers built in Delhi. We make some more gpt straight away if we switch to workers, that will snowball if they make more roads. Slightly longer term: 3 luxes and improved terrain should mean an easy switch to Republic, then perhaps some workers can join towns again for a healthier financial situation.
* For the settler in the west I find the coastal spot on the hill also a very good location; hill position for defense, and for claiming a bigger area. If we don't claim this spot Babylon will, because they've got a galley on the way. The spot you pointed out, Overseer, will not likely be claimed by the AI, as it's so close to our borders.

Thanks for already giving some ideas, Overseer. More ideas welcome. I can very well imagine that I won't play my turns in one go, but will ask for some advise halfway through.

 

[TheOverseer714]

There is a babylonian galley, likely with a settler pair, that will probably grab some spot that we want. The settler is there, why keep walking around? The archers at munich are disposable, use them, my god how long are we going to avoid attacking? For this being a war, we sure aren't doing any fighting. We need to take some iniative here and not let the Iroquois do our fighting. We have 7 civilizations to eliminate and we haven't even attacked anything. If we keep waiting for certain victory in every encounter, we have already lost. Rant over..... On the Greek front, when I checked during my pre-flight and later on, the Greeks were insulted at peace for peace. They wanted all our money, and that wasn't happening. If it gets better, make peace, but right now, they are mostly a nuisance. Take heart, we will soon have 2 Ancient Cavalry per turn-set until we research Metallurgy and we are 4 techs from War Elephants. There better be some stomping going on by then.
P.S Oh and next settler out of Delhi can grab the dyes, just make sure there is an escort.

 

[Optional]

Well, that puts me for a dilemma, as I find the whole tactic with that Archer stack weak, so I don't want to persue that.
But if I'm spoiling the game by doing something contrary to what others want me doing than that's not good either. I don't want to spoil other players fun.

So it might be best if I hand the game back in now, and let somebody else have a turn. Making a swap in the roster might prevent a few long faces. It's mainly your last 'rant', Overseer, that makes me suggest this, but no ill feelings from my side.

The differences in strategy we've probably covered, but if anyone wants me to explain my ideas about tactics better than I'm happy to do that.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Please, play it your way. I'm just feeling impatient with our progress or lack thereof. Maybe any form of AW is too difficult for our current team and we shouldn't have tried it. I am used to being a little too cautious and me being the "let it all hang out" guy and the least cautious is decidedly weird territory. I'm not giving orders in my posts, it's more like suggestions. This is a team, and maybe it came across as not so, for that I apologize. Play your turns with your judgement, and if I don't like how it went, I'll deal with it on my own. I definitely don't want to make anyone overly uncomfortable, that isn't the goal. The goal is to learn new tactics and improve our games. So use your own ideas about playing and I will shut up.

 

[Optional]

Cool, I'll play then...

Yes, I understand your impatience, I've had a rant myself a few pages earlier. No progress on the warfront. But we've playing peaceful expansion sofar. Only now our barracks are beginning to produce units at a reasonable pace. We're still struggling to keep our freshy founded towns from being attacked, but we should be more comfortable a few turnsets from now. We can probably handle this variant of Always War.

 

[Rodent]

Guess I will join the Discussion.

I say attack. Some Warring needs to start. Leaving it too late might be disastrous. Maybe not Munich, but we can definitely seek out the German SoD and kill it.

 

[barbslinger]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182684&stc=1&d=1215849921
Will you guys quit talking and start kicking some a$$

 

[barbslinger]

BTW - I've really enjoyed this game.

 

[Optional]

Yes, it's indeed a nice game, Barbslinger. I think we got lucky with the map. I'm glad to hear you had a good time on it.

So I played. I kept things steadily moving along. For ourselves I kept things peaceful, but I made sure there was a lot of stomping going on. I immediately set up Babylon and Greece against each other again, because I didn't want them to settle down.
The war with Germany is going well. From the last couple of posts you would think we're not going anywhere, but look at the powergraph below and you know different. Maybe a downer is that they've built the Great Wall, but they're not much anymore, so they shouldn't be a problem.
The Dyes are now in our borders. Our military is a lot bigger, but still below our allowance in Despotism. We've got 3 more towns in and there's still a lot of unsettled space. We're not allowing Germany and Babylon to expand.

Later I'll post the save and the turnlog if my computer wants to cooperate. It's probably time for Jorgo to slowly warm up. Peace man!

 

[Optional]

Time for the turnlog; Gandhi, 750BC - 570BC:

Spoiler :

situation: expansion phase, war with Germany, war with Greece.
Greece are up for peace, but I sign an alliance with Babylon against them. For that we give Babylon Mathematics (everybody knows this tech), and we get Babylon's 25 gold. The builds I'll do this turnset: Horsemen in barracks towns, Catapults in non barracks towns, Delhi switches between settlers and workers. 1 town is building a Galley, 2 border towns are building temples, mainly for border expansion.
IBT: We've got a stack of 4 Archers and 1 Spear near Munich, a German Archer wins attacking the Spear. Trust me, this is the last unit we lose in this turnlog. There was a Greek Archer threatening to attack Bengal, but he didn't. I had time to bring a Catapult over, wound him and when when he came off the mountain kill him with a Horse a couple of turns later.
Babylonian settler pair lands near Karachi.
730BC: We've researched Republic. So have Aztecs. I set research to Currency, which will take 8 turns at 80%. Lux slider down to 20%. That's where the lux slider will stay the rest of this turnset.
I can't resist giving our elite Archer a shot at the redlined Archer near Munich (leader fishing). He wins, but that's it. Stack moves with him.
I go scouting with a Horse towards the area where I want to take the settler, and spot a Barbarian Horse. I move 3 workers to safety and cover our settler with a warrior.
Found Chittagong.
IBT: a Babylonian settler pair gets mugged by a few Greek Archers. YES! That's what we like to see!
710BC: Our elite Archer defeats another German Archer near Munich. I direct our stack home.
a Vet Archer of ours defeats the Barbarian Horse near Lahore.
a Vet Horseman of ours kills the Greek Archer that mugged the Babylonian settler pair and promotes. I'm actually after the slave workers, but it turns out there's another Greek Archer, that in the next IBT attacks our Horse. However, our Horse wins and in the next turn he grabs the slave workers. I rename this Horse Slavegrabber. He has done very well.
Our scouting Horseman in the west spots a Barbarian camp near where I want to send the settler.
IBT: Babylon is fighting roaming Hoplites.
Iroquois research Currency. They trade with Aztecs; they're now both in the Middle Ages and both have Republic. Their entry in the Middle Ages causes a barbarian uprising just when our Horse was ready to take out their camp, and our settler was ready to settle. I wish I had taken Overseer's spot for settling, that would have been alright.
690BC: I decide to wait with settling until reinforcements arrive, as I think our bank account of 142 gold justifies waiting a few turns until things look safer. In the meantime I'm blocking the path for the Babylonian settler pair that is still hovering about. For the whole length of my turnset I'm not letting them settle.
IBT: Hammurabi is still banging away at Hoplites. Yes, we can think of nice jobs for him to do.
670BC: Delhi spawns the settler that I send on the way to the Dyes.
IBT a Few Greek Archers are approaching. Centralia (Iroquois) pops up where I wanted to settle. Clearly every decision I make here turns out to be a bad one.
650BC: I need to go somewhere else with the settler, and take him a bit northeast.
IBT: Nothing of note.
630BC: Nothing of note.
IBT: Henry of Portugal establishes an Embassy in our capital. Yes, please drop by for a coffee, that'll liven things up a bit.
610BC: settle Punjab.
We research Currency. On Overseer's suggestion we'll do Feudalism next.
One of our Horsemen is surveying the Dyes area where I want to take the next settler. There's a German Spear there, and 3 Barbarian Horsemen in the exact spot I want to settle, so my Horse kills one of them.
IBT: The remaining 2 get attacked from the other side, as it turns out by a Viking warrior.
Germany has completed the Great Wall. Ah, oh well.
Vikings enter Middle Ages.
590BC: As most civs have now got Currency, I decide to sell it to Portugal for their money: 154 gold. With the deal I sign an alliance against Germany, mostly so that they can not trade with them. Germany, Greece and Babylon are the only civs left still in the AA.
One of our Horsemen kills the last Barbarian Horse near the Dyes and our settler can get into place.
IBT: Two German Spears enter our territory; one near Kolhapur and one near Calcutta.
570BC: Both Spears get bombarded with our Catapults, one gets finished off by one of our Ancient Cavalries, the other one I leave for the next player.

situation now:
Still: War with Germany, War with Greece.
Alliances: with Iroquois against Germany, 11 turns to go.
with Babylon against Greece, 11 turns to go.
with Portugal against Germany, 19 turns to go.
14 towns
Military: 11 Horses, 9 Archers, 5 Warriors, 2 Spears, 2 AC's, 5 Cats.
1 Curragh.
15 native workers, 3 slaves (says CivAssist, I don't know about a third slave).
Still in Despotism, researching Feudalism.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Well-played Optional. It is time for a roster update, so here it is:

1: TheOverseer714=> waiting longer
2: Optional=> just played
3: Jorgo Mono=>up
4: Anaxagoras=>on deck
5: Northen Wolf=> warming up
6: Rodent=> waiting
3: ThinkTank=> Honored lurker

Haven't heard from our next player in a while, hope all is well.

 

[anaxagoras]

If Jorgo's around, I'm happy for him to take his turn. I could probably go late this week, if we dont' hear from him.

Nice set, Optional.

 

[Jorgo_Mono]

I'm here, just been pretty busy.

I'll try to get my turnset done by the end of today or tomorrow.

 

[anaxagoras]

Optional - I did have one question: Why did we sign an alliance v. Greece? I don't necessarily think it hurts us, since Greece's main unit is defensive. I'm just curious why we locked into 20 more turns at war. Were you feeling we should lock in war happiness? Was it just to keep Babylon and Greece embroiled?

I'm not meaning to criticize, I was just curious about your reasoning.

 

[Optional]

I'm not meaning to criticize, I was just curious about your reasoning.

Well, I do hope you will criticise if you feel like it! I don't mind at all if people question what I'm doing.
But yeah, about that war with Greece; the first thing I was thinking about was indeed the war happiness we got from them. The lux slider was at 30% when I got the game, I was afraid peace with Greece would move that to 40%, and hurt our research rate. We would have gotten Greece's 25 gold in a peace deal, but that doesn't compensate for that.
But equally important I found that Greece and Babylon continued to slug it out with each other. Babylon is our next victim. The war with Greece will keep them under the thumb.
Of course I considered in how far Greece would be able to hurt us if we continued the war, but with them having neither Horses or Swords, and with Babylon probably absorbing most of the attacks, I didn't see Greece being too much of a problem for us.
It ties up some of our units if we continue the war against Greece, but a couple of Catapults and Horses will go a long way here, and will even allow for some leader fishing.
And another thing I was thinking about is if Greece would settle at a spot we had our eyes on, like the Dyes spot, then we could brush them away if we were still at war with them, but not if we had just signed peace with them.

So that's about 4 reasons I saw to keep the war against Greece going, and I couldn't really come up with anything major against it. I was still in favor of signing peace with Greece a couple of turnsets ago but that had changed.

I'll say how I view the situation now, with a couple of suggestions for next moves:

We're quite comfy now. I reckon in my turnset I built about 10 Horses and only 2 settlers. That was maybe the first time in the game that we built a considerable surplus of military.
Germany is down and for the taking. They don't have Horses, and they're not logged on to that Iron - we stood in front of Munich, we would have been able to see a road on the Iron hill if there was one. The only thing is, they've got the Wall.
Suggestion: Why not build another 10 Horses in the next turnset, then gather 20 Horses and 4 Ancient Cavalries, make a stack, gallop to Berlin and take it?
We don't even know where Berlin is, so normally I wouldn't suggest this route, but taking the Great Wall first would make mopping up the rest of Germany a lot easier. Otherwise it would be a pain losing many units over lousy size 1 towns just because they have walls.
Then there are the Iroquois; perhaps if we don't take Berlin they will, and then they've got the Great Wall instead of us.

It's just a suggestion, it might be a little on the bold side, and you would need to keep focus for it to work, but it might be fun.

Jorgo, good luck in your turnset!

 

[Spoonwood]

Barbslinger, I think it's out of place to post a screenshot of the same game as a succession game centuries later. For the team, by all means talk... planning and discussing strategies makes it better for the team, no doubt.

 

[Rodent]

Even if we capture the Great Wall, the Walls in the Other Towns will *probably* stay so I do not think that is quite a option, aside that the wonder will help us

 

[TheOverseer714]

Grabbing any wonder takes away the benefit related improvement, so taking the Great Wall will remove the walls it generates. Besides, it will instantly give us walls, which will give us a leg up defene-wise. Apparently the Iroquois have considerably weakened Germany, so maybe it is time to grab a few towns. The one thing to remember is that when Germany is gone, we must declare on Babylon. Therefore, the alliance needs cancelled as soon as the 20 turns are up, otherwise we will trash our reputation. Germany is not going to last much longer, so we must prepare for our next target. That means boosting defenses in the north and making sure there are roads to the front so we can take them down. I think we aren't too far from critical mass, where we have the troops to run amok over our enemies with a massive War Elephant rush, maybe 4-5 more turn-sets. Looks pretty good.