SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[splunge the 2nd]

I'd say keep the core and use the Greek/Persian continent for farms.

In the short term, we have the spear army in Persia pillaging resources. I'd like to see some luxes on line (the harbor at Dortmond will be ready eventually but the sea route across could be blocked by enemy shipping). If Persia is weak, we might risk taking Marathon too.

 

[DWetzel]

Just checking in so y'all don't think I've run off. Haven't touched the save other than to look over the position a couple of times, it's been pretty hectic at home the last couple nights. Should be able to play either tonight or tomorrow though. Sorry for the delay.

 

[DWetzel]

Quick thought regarding our leader:

I am inclined strongly to switch Frankfurt away from the Military Academy (probably to a marketplace or, probably better, a university). We can then use our existing leader for a Military Academy insta-build.

Here's my reasoning:

1. Frankfurt, at an absolute maximum of 16 spt, is not a great spot to be cranking out armies from. Another city (a fully optimized Berlin, for instance) would be better for this purpose. Really, though, anywhere we build the MA is going to be worthless if we ever jump the palace -- which is one more very good reason IMO to NOT jump the palace.

2. We could build a market or university (right now, the former makes more sense, this may change in the future) right now, albeit at a decent shield waste, which would help us now--and then we can relocate the MA wherever we want to.

3. If we create a second empty army with our leader, we're going to have to shepherd them both home (or, accurately, up to Dortmund), which is going to be an excruciatingly slow process. (I assume we would try to load both with cavalry.) I guess that since we already have the one empty one I may have to suck this up regardless.

IMO jumping a palace right now is a no-go, so we need another use for the leader.


I may be rambling a bit, but a quick opinion would be appreciated.

 

[DWetzel]

Meh, on second thought, disregard most of the above. I think we can use the second cavalry army, we probably aren't jumping the palace, and Frankfurt wouldn't have been my first choice for a military academy site, but whatever.

However, we have another very pleasant problem to deal with that necessitates a team discussion. Turnlog for my first 3+ turns below:

Spoiler :

Preturn:

I take a look at our overall MMing situation. While it's awesome that we can get MT in four turns, I really don't see the point in sacrificing as much as we are in many of our cities, including some core ones. So I do a bunch of MMing. The result is that, while we get MT in five turns instead of four, none of our core cities are starving, I can set the cities that are doing wealth to settler production instead (we have a lot of soon to be cleared Greek lands to fill up), we're getting +9 gpt (which will come in handy in a few short turns), and we're not going to get any cavalry builds in less than 5 turns anyway so we don't need to rush.

Science 30%
Lux 10%
Taxes 60%

I also take a look at our build situation. Nothing really to complain about there at this exact moment, except that someone has a courthouse fetish that I'm not sure I like. As mentioned, the cities in our south that were on wealth are now on settler duty.

All our units are moved, so there are no decisions to be made for this turn.

IBT: Our 3/5 horse retreats from the Persian immortal. Smart move, horsie! (0-0)

Greek units converge rapidly on Herkleia. Total inside or at the borders: 6 LB + a hoplite.
Two Russian galleys appear at our canal area from the south.
Vikings start Sistine Chapel.


860 AD (1): We build... nothing. MT says 5 turns still as we lost a scientist from Athens when it starved. I'm confident we can make that up elsewhere.

I decide to sell the marketplace in Athens for 25g, since it's going to be a lousy town for a while and we can use the cash.

Trebs go 2/4 at Mycenae, knocking both hoplites to 2/3.
4/4 LB vs. 2/3 hoplite = 1/4 LB.
4/4 LB vs. 2/3 hoplite = 2/4 LB. (2-0).

We capture Mycenae (size 4, 4 resistors). Mycenae has the only source of horses that Greece had, and it also has furs, so I really want to hold this if possible.

LB from our stack vs. LB near Herakleia: 3/4 LB (3-0).
LB from our stack vs. LB near Herakleia: 3/4 LB (4-0).
Crusader vs. LB near Herakleia: 2/4 crusader (5-0).
5/5 horse vs. LB near Herakleia: 2/5 horse (6-0), who then returns home.

Our LB/musket army moves and attacks Corinth...
losing 6 HP but killing a 3/3 hoplite... (7-0)
and capturing the town??? That seems suspiciously easy.

Hengest now has clear roads to get up to Dortmund in 2 turns, and sets out at maximum warp speed.

4/4 horse kills a LB near Corinth, promoting to elite (8-0).

Down Panama way, trebuchets decimate the Persian immortal pair, which are finished off by a 4/4 longbow (promoting), and our army (which returns to its perch). (10-0)

We'll have two Persian knights incoming next turn, two more the turn after that.

Move a bunch of units.

IBT: Not much.

870 AD (2): We end resistance in Athens, and quell two resisters in Corinth.

At Panama, it takes 12 of our 13 trebs to take two knights all the way down, but they do. A 5/5 LB and our army do the trick (12-0).

It takes two longbows to dispose of a Hoplite at Herakleia (13-1).

Our southern group advances on Thessalonika, on the western Greek coast. Clearing and holding that town will give us a nice front to take care of any Greek units while we clean our back door up.

On the way to the Persian horsies, I take out their wines. Teehee.

IBT: No attacks.

880 AD (3): Athens starves. We quell one at Mycenae.

At Thessalonika, We bomb the crap out of the two hoplites. Hengst takes them both out, and we capture the town (size 2, 1 resister.) (15-1).

An eHorse kills a stray Greek longbow (16-1).

We say good night to two Persian knights at Panama (18-1). Our army loses 5 HP taking one HP from a knight.

Clear out two Greek longbows at Herakleia (20-1), and that part of the world is secured.

After looking a few things over, we can actually get MT in one turn instead of two with some MM, so now I go back and do the MM of some of our outer cities (basically borrowing a taxman or scientist here and there). We have 36g, and will get MT in one at -29 gpt. Sounds like a deal to me. Hope I'm not miscalculating something with the scientists disappearing afterturns... we'll see!

Pillage the Persian horsies.

890 AD (4): We get Military Tradition... and a very pleasant surprise, I think you'll agree:

So, the question is, what to do now? I'll spoiler it, mainly to make you read the first spoiler:

Spoiler :

1. Press research to Music Theory (sustainable, barely, at 10 turns with not too many scientists; probably gettable in 8 or so) and grab Bach's. This will solve a lot of happiness problems and let us do everything else faster.

2. Press research to Astronomy (sustainable, barely, at 14 turns with not too many scientists; probably gettable in 11 or so)and blow it for Copernicus' Observatory somewhere.

3. Blow it now for Sistine Chapel. This seems dumb since cathedrals aren't happening... but at least we'd use it now and deny it to the AI. This would also absolutely kill any wonder cascades out there.

4. Blow it now on something else like a market or university. Not a good choice but I include it for completeness.

Keep in mind, we will not get any MGLs while we hold the SGL. This argues in favor of doing something quickly.

I am pretty strongly in favor of Bach's Cathedral, for all the obvious reasons. We will have a 3rd (and possibly a 4th) luxury online to our core in a few turns thanks to our harbor at Dortmund, though, so we may not immediately need all the happiness. Still, this would enable us to get to size 12 in our cities with no problems and 0 lux, which has to be good for us.

 

[TheOverseer714]

SGL is very nice! I vote Bachs, it's very useful in AW games, allowing a lower lux rate.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I didn't realize SGL's were on! Awesome luck!

Is Sun Tzu's taken?
I agree with Bach if it is.
In the long run, dominating the Greek?persian subcontinent will get both some luxes on line and science farms going. I'm not sure whether Bach's happiness or the research boon from Copernicus will help us more in the long run, but my gut says Bach.

 

[DWetzel]

Yes, the only available wonder right now is Sistine. Sun Tzu and Leo's are both off the board.

I'll wait for one more opinion, or tomorrow noonish, and go from there.

Greece seems to be completely gassed, and we should be able to really gut them quickly. We have their furs (though no connection yet), and they also have spices hooked up at Thermopylae (basically SE of Athens), which I'm going to take a poke at next turn, so our lux situation should improve nicely.

 

[Lanzelot]

I decide to sell the marketplace in Athens for 25g, since it's going to be a lousy town for a while and we can use the cash.

Oh no.
I was so glad that we captured at least something precious in those Greek cities. (Usually they are completely empty... Either because the AI had been too stupid to build anything, or because they were running a deficit during the last turns of war and everything got disbanded...)
I was going to start cash-rushing markets, barracks and perhaps a few granaries in all our Greek possessions during my turn-set! You just burned 396g to get 25g.

 

[Lanzelot]

I didn't realize SGL's were on! Awesome luck!

That's how we got the Great Library, remember?

 

[Lanzelot]

Nothing really to complain about there at this exact moment, except that someone has a courthouse fetish that I'm not sure I like.

These were just prebuilds:

We have a bunch of coloseum and courthouse prebuilds for cavs.

 

[Lanzelot]

I agree, Bach's Cathedral is the best we can get for our SGL at the moment. However, I don't like the prospect of researching another optional tech for that?! Music is more than 1000 beakers. How much gold does lowering the lux slider by 10% gain us? I think around 10gpt. (Would need to test with a current .sav.) Even if it's 20gpt, it would take 50 turns before that investment pays off.
I think investing these 1000 gold into the setup of the new core would pay off much sooner and in bigger style.

BTW: with the luxuries that we will soon get, we can set the lux slider to 0% anyway, so there's absolutely no need to waste 1000 gold for Bach's Cathedral.

I would set research to 0% now with a lone scientist on Astronomy. Use the gold to rush the future core (I think that can be done in 10 turns, if we get 5-6 settlers to Greece fast enough) and then use the SGL for rushing the Palace. The second ring can then be "handbuild" with shields, once the Palace is in Place.
Until that time we will only use veteran units (and hopefully get many promotions) and Armies.
Both MGLs can form Cav Armies, and Frankfurt can finish the Academy by hand. With a courthouse and being next to the FP, it should still make like 7-8 shields, so it can work a couple of turns and then we cash-rush the Army.

During the 50 turns that our lone scientist needs for Astronomy, we can finish Greece, Persia and Scandinavia (with galleys; Sparta has the Lighthouse, so we'll have 4-movement galleys and can travel sea). And perhaps even start on the other big continent. Afterwards we can use caravels. (But in fact I think galleys are sufficient to conquer this world: there is a safe passage from Scandinavia to the Beta continent. Caravels is only "nice to have").

In short, I think research is now finished for this game. Cavalry will bring us to domination, long before any AI reaches Nationalism.

 

[DWetzel]

Oh no.
I was so glad that we captured at least something precious in those Greek cities. (Usually they are completely empty... Either because the AI had been too stupid to build anything, or because they were running a deficit during the last turns of war and everything got disbanded...)
I was going to start cash-rushing markets, barracks and perhaps a few granaries in all our Greek possessions during my turn-set! You just burned 396g to get 25g.

Unless we actually jump the palace over there (and last consensus seemed to be that that was a poor idea, at least in the semi-short term), that marketplace is just burning maintenance.

 

[DWetzel]

These were just prebuilds:

OK--except in a couple of cases we were prebuilding cavs in places without barracks, so I was not at all sure. One of them actually makes some sense as, of all things, a courthouse, so I've left it. The others were switched, either to cavs or to something more immediately useful.

 

[DWetzel]

I agree, Bach's Cathedral is the best we can get for our SGL at the moment. However, I don't like the prospect of researching another optional tech for that?! Music is more than 1000 beakers. How much gold does lowering the lux slider by 10% gain us? I think around 10gpt. (Would need to test with a current .sav.) Even if it's 20gpt, it would take 50 turns before that investment pays off.
I think investing these 1000 gold into the setup of the new core would pay off much sooner and in bigger style.

BTW: with the luxuries that we will soon get, we can the lux slider to 0% anyway, so there's absolutely no need to waste 1000 gold for Bach's Cathedral.

I would set research to 0% now with a lone scientist on Astronomy. Use the gold to rush the future core (I think that can be done in 10 turns, if we get 5-6 settlers to Greece fast enough) and then use the SGL for rushing the Palace. The second ring can then be "handbuild" with shields, once the Palace is in Place.
Until that time we will only use veteran units (and hopefully get many promotions) and Armies.
Both MGLs can form Cav Armies, and Frankfurt can finish the Academy by hand. With a courthouse and being next to the FP, it should still make like 7-8 shields, so it can work a couple of turns and then we cash-rush the Army.

During the 50 turns that our lone scientist needs for Astronomy, we can finish Greece, Persia and Scandinavia (with galleys; Sparta has the Lighthouse, so we'll have 4-movement galleys and can travel sea). And perhaps even start on the other big continent. Afterwards we can use caravels. (But in fact I think galleys are sufficient to conquer this world: there is a safe passage from Scandinavia to the Beta continent. Caravels is only "nice to have").

In short, I think research is now finished for this game. Cavalry will bring us to domination, long before any AI reaches Nationalism.

I think we need to come to a team consensus (or at least majority) right now as to whether to execute this plan, or to proceed with our core "as is", before I can finish the turnset. I don't think we have one at the moment.

A few basic facts at the moment:

Right now, with no specialists, at 100% taxes, zero science, and zero luxuries, we are at +92 gpt. Our maximum sustainable non-tax rate is 50% at the moment (which we are using at 40% science and 10% lux), which would provide us a whopping +2 gpt without specialists. With approximately ten scientists on the books right now, Music Theory is reachable in 10 turns, Astronomy in 14. It may be possible to bring this number down by a turn or two as we get more towns.

Our unit costs are 61 gpt right now (147 units, 86 supported).

We currently have exactly three marketplaces serving our core. They are in Hamburg, Konigsberg and Hannover.

We have nine libraries serving our core cities at the moment. These nine cities make up virtually all of our research capabilities at the moment.

We have one town producing settlers every 4 turns (Leipzig), Rock Am Ring will give us a settler in 3 turns, and a bunch of our southern cities are set to expel settlers in about 10-12 turns from now. Excluding cash-rushing, in 12 turns we should have approximately 7 new settlers.

The Greek core as of right now is poorly improved for production purposes (they've left most of their hills untouched), but it is excellently improved for science farms, with 13 fully roaded and irrigated flood plains tiles. If we are to make the Greek core productive, we will have to transport a lot of workers into the area to mine the hills. We currently possess 17 workers and 10 slaves, and will probably pick up a few more slaves from the Greeks as we proceed. If we get, say, five more slaves, that's effectively 22 worker-equivalents per turn to road and mine the Greek core. We will not have much ability to produce more workers beyond this if we choose to cash-rush a new core.

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It is my belief that we are best set up to proceed by keeping our core as it currently is, proceeding toward Bach's, and THEN going for zero-science toward Astronomy and cash-rushing a number of cavalry and settlers to fill our own continent. This will give us a great boost on our own economy.

Each flood plains tile in Greece supports two scientists. With 13 flood plains tiles, that's 26 supported scientists, or 78 bpt. For perspective, our total science output right now is 118 bpt (and this figure includes ten scientists, if I'm reading CA2 right). This does not include any other irrigated tiles in Greece. This is with zero cash output on our part, except possibly to get the settlers in place (and the settlers will give us 2 gpt when they settle and eat up some unit costs). Effectively, setting up a science factory in the Greek flood plains will increase our science production by 40%.

Along with our production, we also have 14 horsemen that could be upgraded to cavalry. We'll need a bunch of gold for that too -- 2100 to be precise. I doubt we'll be able to spare it either way.

Taking out the Vikings will NOT be as easy as we are making it out, though I suppose if we get past their initial wave we can do it under cover of army. The initial landing will have to be with a no-unit army and a bunch of muskets and cavs, I guess.

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Actually, though I don't know how much enthusiasm anyone would have for this, it might be interesting to take the game from this point and pursue both strategies. It's not as though there is a lot of mystery to the world at this point, so I doubt that the events of one game will greatly affect our decisions in the other. I'd propose that we play using one strategy to the end, then going back and trying the other.

 

[TheOverseer714]

With no jump, JS Bachs makes more sense. I'd be curious to compare what happens with both plans, as both your arguments for each plan are compelling. Lets go with the no jump scenario first as a baseline, then the with jump scenario to compare. I'm up for extended play, as we are at the point where a win is inevitable.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

How far are we woth our MA prebuild? Could we let it go to BAch's (by the way a historically good choice for Germany ) and use the elader for the MA in a more productive city?

I vote (not that it's an election mind you) to stick with the exisitng core and use the Greek contienet more for farms.

 

[DWetzel]

How far are we woth our MA prebuild? Could we let it go to BAch's (by the way a historically good choice for Germany ) and use the elader for the MA in a more productive city?

I vote (not that it's an election mind you) to stick with the exisitng core and use the Greek contienet more for farms.

We've got 259 shields into it right now; at 13 spt that would be about 26 turns for Bach's. It probably makes sense at this point to just let it finish off the military academy and plan to cash-rush armies when we can.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, I think we can learn a lot, if we try out both plans. Let's use splunge's 850AD .sav as a starting point (so we can avoid the selling of Athen's market for the palace jump strategy).

So basically first we try the "turn Greece into a science farm" strategy, and afterwards we try the "make Greece the core" strategy.

And while we are at it: Overseer, do you still have the 4000BC .sav? I'd also like to try the "Republic" variant after the game is finished.

BTW:

and use the elader for the MA in a more productive city?

If we leave the palace in Berlin, then Frankfurt is a pretty productive city! In fact, currently it is the most productive city at 12spt! (Berlin and Hamburg can probably be optimized to be more productive, but currently they aren't.)

 

[TheOverseer714]

I can't find the 4000 BC save yet, you may have to go with a later save. I'll keep looking though.

 

[DWetzel]

OK, I'll proceed with the "Greece as science farm + head for Bach's" plan.