SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

Time for a roster update:

Roster:

1: TheOverseer714=> resting on his 'laurels'
2: Gamezrule=> putting out fires
3: Sparthage=> enjoying a cool drink
4: DWetzel=> up
5: Splunge=> on deck
6: Goodsmell=> warming up
7: Lanzelot=> gatherng ammo
 
Comments:
Spoiler :

2) Rush the Rax in Leipzig asap.
Spoiler :


We don't need a rax in Leipzig. Leipzig is going to produce 4-turn settlers for the next couple thousand years, no military units. Berlin has a barracks already, so it should produce our military units for a while.

Spoiler :

3) We go for Literature and the Great Library
Spoiler :


Don't forget Pottery! Leipzig needs a granary asap!
 
Are we on an island or not?! The Dutch have 5 techs by now, could be that they have a contact and traded. But I think not necessarily. It is possible that they managed to research the three techs themselves, while we were researching IW and half of Alphabet:
  • On Monarch, the AI gets 10% discount.
  • They are agricultural, so grow faster than we do.
  • They are seafaring and have already 3 towns. My guess is all 3 of them are coastal towns, so they have a lot of extra commerce.
  • Two of the techs they researched (Bronze and Warrior Code) are quite cheap, because we already know them (so they are no longer monopoly techs)

In short: I think they don't have a contact yet and we might be sharing an island with them. So at the moment I agree with Sparthage that the Great Library might be preferable over the Pyramids.
 
A couple of tips on worker management:

The two wheat tiles are the most powerful tiles we have. But the worker is currently on a worthless grassland tile. :confused:
If the Dutch warrior on the hill prevented improvement of the two wheat tiles up to now, then at least the worker should have built a mine on one of the bonus grasslands.

Currently we have already three tiles roaded, but Leipzig can use only one of them, the other two are not giving any immediate benefit at the moment, they could have been roaded later, after Leipzig has grown. And the tile that the worker is currently on, will not be used until Leipzig has grown to size 5. So why improve it already now, when 4 much better tiles are still unimproved?
 
PS: one more...
Please everyone tell me if I sound too much like a smart-ass know-it-all and you feel annoyed...! But I thought that one reason for having this SG is so that the newbies in our team can learn something. Therefore I'm going to point out whatever I think needs improvement. (Until someone tells me to shut up... :lol:)

Lanzelot
 
You go right ahead, sir Lanzelot! I am not a newbie, and I could learn a lot from you. I think constructive criticism, if treated in a respectful manner, is the keystone to learning. To our newer players, please don't be offended by us 'elders' when we point this stuff out. We want this game to be a success as much as you do.
 
Are we on an island or not?! The Dutch have 5 techs by now, could be that they have a contact and traded. But I think not necessarily. It is possible that they managed to research the three techs themselves, while we were researching IW and half of Alphabet:
  • On Monarch, the AI gets 10% discount.
  • They are agricultural, so grow faster than we do.
  • They are seafaring and have already 3 towns. My guess is all 3 of them are coastal towns, so they have a lot of extra commerce.
  • Two of the techs they researched (Bronze and Warrior Code) are quite cheap, because we already know them (so they are no longer monopoly techs)

In short: I think they don't have a contact yet and we might be sharing an island with them. So at the moment I agree with Sparthage that the Great Library might be preferable over the Pyramids.
Lurker's comment:
The Dutch often go straight for Writing, I thought. Unlikely that they researched Bronze Working, Warrior Code and The Wheel. And you're not having goody huts on? I think they must have a contact.
 
PS: one more...
Please everyone tell me if I sound too much like a smart-ass know-it-all and you feel annoyed...! But I thought that one reason for having this SG is so that the newbies in our team can learn something. Therefore I'm going to point out whatever I think needs improvement. (Until someone tells me to shut up... )

^_^, You don't sound like an annoying smart-ass dude, just the opposite, it helps the weaker players like me, I prefer to read some useful stuff about improvment and have a direction for my turnset than making a lot of rookie mistakes because I didn't listen or something .
so, keep your job :P
 
Lurker's comment:
The Dutch often go straight for Writing, I thought. Unlikely that they researched Bronze Working, Warrior Code and The Wheel. And you're not having goody huts on? I think they must have a contact.

Interesting. If that really happened, it means at least two civs already know Writing, and our chances for Philosophy are getting smaller. Anyway, we are going to find out for sure, when Alphabet is finished.


Ok then, I'll keep up my comments and try not to sound too reproachful when pointing out little glitches... ;)

For the moment I've prepared a little dotmap and present it here in order to fuel the discussion. Please consider it a draft or proposal for the moment. I'm in no way sure about all the spots yet myself. But I think we need a rough midterm plan to guide our next actions. Anyway, here it is:

attachment.php


I think New City 1 is quite obvious, it serves two purposes at the same time: getting our first curragh out asap and connecting the silks asap. It also adds two more bonus grasslands to our empire.
However, after that I'm unsure. In a "normal" game I would then follow up with New City 6 & 7, to get more river towns and speed up the research. In this game however, it might be more important to first expand towards the Dutch, and only after we have claimed our share of the "island?!", fill in the backyard to the north. Therefore I numbered the southern towns 2-5 and the northern ones 6-9.
Comments welcome.

DWetzel is up next, so I probably don't need to mention the following points, but here they are for the "newbies"...:

Leipzig can use the wheat tile for one more turn, but then it should switch to a BG tile. It will then still grow in 2, but will collect 2 extra shields that way! (BTW: I consider the barracks a prebuild for the coming granary.)

I think we should first let Berlin grow to size 4 before starting another settler. (On Monarch with 2 military police 4 citizens can be productive without needing the lux slider.) BTW normally I would not build another settler out of Berlin and just let it grow, but this game may be different, because we want a curragh asap.
Perhaps Berlin could just build two more archers (with 4 of them and a spear for protection we can then take over Rotterdam) and afterwards another worker and then the settler for NC 1. Unfortunately it will still take too long before Leipzig can start spitting out settlers, and I want NC 1 before that.

Lanzelot
 
I don't generally disagree with your proposed dotmap. I'd make a few changes though. In general, I feel like there's too many cities around Berlin in your proposed dotmap. It feels too crowded to be useful. To that end:

I'd move NC7 one square NW. I realize it loses the river, but I feel like it crowds Berlin a lot as it is, and there isn't a lot of additional production around it. Similarly, NC6 and NC8 is too much together; I'd scrap NC6 and move NC8 1 square north, or just put it where 9 is. That seems to give every city enough to be useful. I think you were trying to use the river a lot here (good!) but I think it just cripples Berlin too much to be of enough use. I think I would love that dotmap if we erased Berlin as part of it, and maybe far down the line that's worth considering?

I agree that NC1 is our next site. I also agree that letting Berlin grow a bit (such that it doesn't fall to size 1) is a very good idea. At size 2 Berlin is making 4 turn spears/archers. That's the minimum size it should ever be allowed to fall to. Down the road, if we can get one mined grassland up and running, it can get to 10 shields at size 5 (2x mBG, 1x mG, 2x forest) and have no growth. With one luxury online after NC1, it can stay size 5 with no luxuries; that's an ideal state of affairs.

I am sorely tempted to try to spit a worker out of Leipzig before doing anything else. A second worker will dramatically improve our speed in improving Leipzig, and generally be very useful in improving our lands.

It doesn't appear that we have sent a spear down through Dutch lands at all to explore; I guess I'll try to get that started during my set. (I'll send one sallying forth from Berlin, and swap Berlin to an archer.)

Forestry question: I want to double check my math, but am I correct that of the two forest squares that Leipzig and Berlin both use, Leipzig would get the chop from the one to the north and Berlin would get the one to the south?
 
I think I would love that dotmap if we erased Berlin as part of it, and maybe far down the line that's worth considering?

Exactly! The long term plan is to let NC 2 build the Forbidden Palace, conquer some spacious new land on a different continent and then disband Berlin to jump the palace over there. Until then it's good to have as many towns as possible. That reduces unit upkeep, and the towns will probably all be around size 5-7, when the crowdedness is not yet a problem. (And for producing many units, small towns are usually as effective as bigger ones. For example: a town with 6spt produces 30-shield units (swords, horsemen) at the same speed as towns with 7spt! 6x5 = 30, 7x5 = 35.
However, it may require a bit of delicate micro-management, re-assigning tiles from one town to another at certain points in the production cycle, so as to avoid overrun in one town and missing shields in an adjacent one.

I am sorely tempted to try to spit a worker out of Leipzig before doing anything else. A second worker will dramatically improve our speed in improving Leipzig, and generally be very useful in improving our lands.
Yes, we need more workers now. Do so whenever you feel like it.
BTW, you know what is necessary for the 4-turner? One wheat needs irrigation, the other one a mine.

Forestry question: I want to double check my math, but am I correct that of the two forest squares that Leipzig and Berlin both use, Leipzig would get the chop from the one to the north and Berlin would get the one to the south?
I'm not sure, whether I have already understood the rules for where the timber falls myself, but I think both forests would go to Berlin.


PS: another benefit of letting Berlin grow a bit is faster research!
 
Lurker:
Here is what Alexman post on chopping:

When you chop a forest, the city receiving the shields is determined in this order of priority (keypad directions to city location from forest):
9-6-3-2-1-4-7-8-98-99-96-36-33-32-12-11-14-74-77-78.

Cities building a Wonder or belonging to a different civilization are not considered. Worked tiles make no difference to where the shields end up.

For those that are unfamilar he is/was working on Civ and had access to the code.
 
Lurker:
Here is what Alexman post on chopping:

When you chop a forest, the city receiving the shields is determined in this order of priority (keypad directions to city location from forest):
9-6-3-2-1-4-7-8-98-99-96-36-33-32-12-11-14-74-77-78.

Cities building a Wonder or belonging to a different civilization are not considered. Worked tiles make no difference to where the shields end up.

For those that are unfamilar he is/was working on Civ and had access to the code.

Excellent, thanks. If I'm reading that then both would go to Berlin, which is too bad (since we don't have a wonder we can pretend to put Berlin on for a turn). I guess in a pinch a turn of wealth might work out (yeah, it sucks, but I want to get that granary up ASAP!).
 
I haven't been on recently but here is my main argument for the Great Library.

If we indeed are on an island, when we get off we have a chance of being technologically inferior to the rest of the world. With the Great Library we can catch up in a few turns. Whereas with no TGL we would have a VERY difficult time catching up.

Also, with the city situation. I think that we should send our next settler to the City #1 tile.
 
We do need that lux, for sure. I'm also thinking we need the unit support. The dotmap seems crowded, bu with our tiny area to work in, it will have to do. Lets try to grow Berlin before the settler though. Luxes are nice, but less critcal at monarch
 
Preflight:

I'm going to be as straightforward as possible here, don't take any of it personally!

First and most important, there is no reason at all for the worker to be where it is. Someone noted this earlier, but it bears repeating. The two most important tiles in our empire right now are the two wheat tiles, they are vital to get a settler factory going. The worker should be developing those before all else. Further, Leipzig would have to grow to at least size 5 or 6 before ever using the tile that worker was on. The time will soon come where we'll have a settler factory in place there; I'll wait until later to explain it more clearly, but once we have a granary even close to up and running, if you don't know how a settler factory works, ASK!!!!

Second, we discussed before the turnset moving a spear through Dutch territory to find out if we are in fact on an island. No such movement took place. That's a vital thing to have done, because our decisions about what wonder to build and what research to make depend on what we find! I won't be able to do this before the turnset is done (probably), but I start a spear moving out of Berlin to hopefully figure that out soon. He arrives on our mountain via the road and will head due south from there.

Third, there is very little need to attack lone units out in the open, especially one standing on a hill (as was the one at Leipzig). Even a lowly warrior has a defense of 1.5 standing on a hill, which means our 2 attack archer has a 57% (2/(2+1.5)) chance on each shot. In short, it has a very decent chance of losing. That same warrior has roughly a 25-ish percent chance of nicking one of our fortified spears (can't remember what the fortify bonus is, 25%?). In short: very early in the game, let the warriors attack our cities. They'll die much faster that way than they will by us attacking them, and we'll lose fewer units in the interim.

I change the build in Berlin to a spear, due in 4 turns, to replace the one that left to head south.

I change the build in Leipzig to a worker, nominally due in 8 turns right now, in order to get that town developed as fast as possible.

The science slider could go from 90% to 80% (which would yield us +1 gpt) and still get Alphabet in 6 turns, but I do not do this, because I anticipate Berlin will grow in 2 turns and the extra commerce will be enough to shave the time to 5 turns. Right now CivAssist 2 says we are making 9 bpt at 90%, Alphabet due in 6, with an end waste of 7 beakers. That means two more beakers over the next 5 turns will be enough. As Berlin grows in 2 turns, that won't be a problem.

As it's pretty risk-free, I move our Copernicus from Berlin out to the northeast, confirming that the land does in fact stop there. He'll head home next turn.


I hit Enter.

IBT: Nothing happens.

2110 BC (1): I move the 1/5 archer back into Leipzig. I swap Leipzig's worked tile to a roaded BG; unfortuately this costs us one commerce per turn (one more reason to keep the science slider high until the last couple turns!). Oh well. Copernicus heads along the coast to fully explore there; our spear moves south. Worker moves into Leipzig.

2070 BC (2): Archer holds in Leipzig. Worker begins irrigating our wheat. Spear heads south.

2030 BC (3): Copernicus explores our north coast; spear heads south.

1990 BC (4): Berlin spear-spear. Leipzig works the other wheat instead of the BG, it will still finish a worker next turn. Archer is fully healed in Leipzig, and will stay there, because there's no need to send it out unescorted. We now have nine units, which results in a 1 gpt maintenance cost (we can support 8 units), which gives me pause about this worker, but I think it must be done. It may be worth spinning off a settler next. This hurts us long term, but short term it's needed. I reduce science to 70%, Alphabet still due in 2 turns. We need 12 beakers over the next two turns. Hopefully no more than that!

1950 BC (5): Leipzig worker-settler (this won't finish on this turnset and can be changed if desired). He moves out and finishes irrigating the wheat tile, freeing our first worker, who starts mining the BG immediately north of Leipzig. The final turn of Alphabet comes at 40%.

1910 BC (6): Alphabet is in; Pottery is in 6 turns at 70% and +0 gpt (we have 10 gold in the bank). I could do it in 5 turns at the cost of all our gold, but that seems pointless. Our spear encounters a warrior in Dutch territory (I misstepped last turn, so unfortunately he's not on a mountain, but he is in forest at least.)

IBT: The warrior does not attack; an archer approaches our spear. The Dutch found Utrecht in the desert S-S-S-S-SE of Berlin, which may well indicate some useful resource (saltpeter?) there. So we got that going for us.

1870 BC (7): Our spear sidesteps onto the mountain, revealing Amsterdam, in a pretty motley-looking spot. If their archer wants to attack us on a mountain, he's welcome to it.

IBT: He didn't.

1830 BC (8): Berlin spear-archer. I leave Berlin growing a bit faster and at 5 shields per turn (working a river grassland). The alternative is to switch to a forest and get 7 spt (good for 3 turn archers/spears), but allowing it to grow faster gets us closer to 10 spt a bit later, and keeps us from having too much trouble with unit support. As it is we're now losing 1 gpt at the present rate, which gets us the treasury warning.

Our spear continues south; the Dutch do have wines on a hill next to Amsterdam. Luxuries will not be a big problem.

The new spear moves toward Leipzig, and I move our archer off the mountain, planning to put the warrior there next turn as our lookout. Both cities will then have two spears and one archer for defense.

IBT: Another archer moves north out of Amsterdam; hopefully they come at us ninja movie style.

1790 BC (9): Leipzig grows; switch from forest to the BG that is in the process of being mined. Maintaining growth there is critical, though not at the cost of ALL production.

Spear moves onto another mountain; Dutch have THREE wine hills, the lucky bastards. The land also seems to widen a bit.

1750 BC (10): Our worker finishes roading the other wheat; it moves to complete the mine at Leipzig. The first worker goes back to mine the second wheat tile.

Our spear continues south. He's on a mined wine hill; probably worth the time to pillage this next turn before heading south. That should annoy some Dutch workers and slow Dutch development.

All units that ought to move this turn, have done so.

I'd expect a Dutch archer or two in probably 2-4 turns if my math is right. It may not be though! :)

The known world:
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Military update:

1 vWarrior
2 archers (1 elite, 1 veteran)
5 spears (4 veteran, 1 regular)
2 workers
1 Copernicus.

City update:

Berlin: size 3, +2 fpt, 14/20 food, archer in production, due in 2 turns, 5 spt, 10/20 shields in.
Leipzig: size 2, +4 fpt, 4/20 food, settler in production, due in 8 turns, 3 spt, 8/30 shields in.

Research: Pottery, due in 2 turns at 70%. We need all 16 commerce that will go to science over the next two turns. After Pottery, I would strongly recommend Masonry as a research point even if we decide we want the Great Library, if only because we will want Walls in our cities. We will need to play a fair bit of defense for a while, especially with no iron in sight, but a nice archer rush (Berlin should build about four more archers, and then accompany them with a spear south) should whittle the Dutch down to size. I would recommend going straight for Amsterdam and playing whack-a-capital for a little while.

Cities/workers: After its current settler, Leipzig should start a granary. It may even be worth swapping to a granary now, but I think we need the third town for production and unit support. Chopping two forests (marked X on the city dotmap) will speed it up. Chopping the OTHER forests won't do any good, as they will go to Berlin. After the workers finish mining the wheat tile (the second one should move there next turn and help, though it does waste one worker turn; want to finish that tile before the Dutch arrive), I would split them up and move one of them onto each of those two tiles to begin chopping. Timing wise, make sure the settler will finish BEFORE the forests are chopped, of course, but I think this should be a non issue. That will get us a good head start on the desperately-needed granary.

After that the workers should road to our third city, and hook up the luxury after roading the two BGs that are just north of Leipzig's current borders. We don't need the luxury immediately, but they should head in that direction. Roading and mining the BGs should be a more immediate concern. After that, they should return to Berlin and road/mine one river grassland tile. The reason for this is explained below.

Berlin, meanwhile, should probably stay on archers for a while. We COULD build a settler here, and maybe that's the right play, but I think taking a run at the Dutch with archers might be useful. After its current archer, I would probably swap the grassland tile to a river forest tile. That will delay Berlin's growth by one turn, but that's okay. We want Berlin at size 4, not size 5, until the luxury hookup is in sight. At size 4, Berlin should work the two powered tiles, one forest, and one grassland, for 7 shields per turn and +1 fpt growth. Be careful to check that this is right when Berlin grows to size 4. If my math is right Berlin should hit size 5 in 23 turns if we follow this plan. That should be enough time for the workers to have roaded up the luxury. Once we're up to size 5, Berlin can work the two mined BGs, one mined grassland, and two forests to give 10 shields per turn, which is a magic number for us (and in most Civ games) since it lets us build an archer or spear in two turns. That's vitally important.

Exploring spear: Keep heading south, but pick a coast (right now the east coast is easier) I'd say. Pillaging around Amsterdam's hill wine tiles may be a smart move too, it's a potentially very productive town, though not while it's size 1.


Dotmap: I've prepared one more since we know a wee bit more of our coastline. I think expanding toward the Dutch may be a bit beyond our means right this second. I'd recommend red dot, then orange, then yellow for maximum safety and production value. Orange isn't immediately all that useful, though it can work forests and be semi productive until we can build a temple or library (better the library) for culture which will capture both the whale tiles. Those are nice tiles...eventually.

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Lurker:

If you do want to let it grow to size 5, it does not have to be happiness issue. Flip one pop to scientist and take the 3 beakers. You are no worse off (same 4 working tiles) and gain 3 beakers.
 
Lurker:

If you do want to let it grow to size 5, it does not have to be happiness issue. Flip one pop to scientist and take the 3 beakers. You are no worse off (same 4 working tiles) and gain 3 beakers.

True enough, but:

1. We have the 1 lux readily available, and
2. Getting to 10 spt seems to me like a Really Good Thing.

We could let Berlin grow a bit faster, but if we do it will only be at 5 spt, and I think I'd rather have the 7spt and somewhat slower growth.
 
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