SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[Sparthage]

Science: I also say that we research Masonry next. Since we aren't going directly to Literature, we should get walls. Also, the grasslands and plains could hold horses, should we research the Wheel as well? Even though we don't have iron, horses make fast versions of archers with Horseback Riding.

Cities: With another settler on the way, I say that we build the next city on the red dot

Exploring Spear: If we choose to pillage the wines, it'll take around six turns, and as soon as the spear moves on or is killed, they'll just reconnect them. With that said, I say we send him south to confirm or bust the theory that this is an island.

Conquests: I think that the order of our Dutch conquests should go as follows: Utrecht-> Amsterdam-> Rotterdam-> The Hague (The Dutch 3rd City, Utrecht is the 4th). This could be done in about 30 turns if the RNG smiles upon us.

Cities and Production: After we get the settler churned out, we build granaries followed by a bunch of archers and then launch the attack against the evil Dutch.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: There's one thing here I don't get:

. . . .Second, we discussed before the turnset moving a spear through Dutch territory to find out if we are in fact on an island. . . .

Why do this? I understand that you want to know if you're on an island so that you can decide how to use the SGL. That would be very helpful to know. However, I think that denying the Pyramids to the AI is worthwhile, even if it only winds up building granaries in 10-12 cities, which seems reasonable to expect even if you're on and island. You can still build the GLib by hand if you have to.

OTOH:

• That spear is one more unit that could be used to either defend a city or to escort a settler.
• If you're on an island, you're going to wind up with one spear trapped on the other side of the Dutch. Yes, he could pillage their wines, but he's probably going to die there and that's 20 lost shields.
• If you're on a peninsula, he's likely to find you a new enemy . . . and then get killed.

I would simply expand towards the Dutch, and kill them off.

 

[DWetzel]

There's one thing here I don't get:

Why do this? I understand that you want to know if you're on an island so that you can decide how to use the SGL. That would be very helpful to know.

I think it's CRITICAL to know. It shapes our whole research and development strategy to know if we're going Pyramids or Great Library. (If I were playing solo, I'd already have the Pyramids in Leipzig, but I'm not, and there was a division of opinion and this is the best way to resolve it.)

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: To be honest, I haven't looked at the save. With that said, however, I guess the reason that I don't see it as critical is that I don't think the two wonders are mutually exclusive. I'll try to take a look at the save soon, but if you burn the SGL on the Pyramids, I think you still have a good shot at the GLib. The AI just doesn't go for Lit all that early.

 

[GamezRule]

I think that looking at this, It really looks like a peninsula, the land seems to spread out. I have not given my input yet, and I think it is better in the long run if we go for the pyramids, I we had them already, we would have extra growth and already be close to Lit already, Aabra is right, the AI usually doesn't go for Lit that early. That would give us a good shot at it.

 

[Sparthage]

Just reread the first post. Two things that need to be changed:
1) This is SGFN08, not SGFN05.
2) War declarations do not need to be voted on seeing as this is an AWM game.

^A Pointless Comment Brought to You by Sparthage^

 

[Lanzelot]

Two comments from my side:

• I've opened the game and checked F4: the Dutch don't know writing yet! Very good news. So this means they didn't trade yet and instead indeed researched those 3 techs themselves. Under these circumstances I'd say, once Pottery is done, we go Writing -> Philosophy and grab Literature for free. This should be less than 30 turns, if we get 2 more towns online during that time.
• Comments/questions on DWetzel's dotmap:
  
  a) I agree that the orange dot is better than my New City 7. The two newly discovered Whale tiles will probably outweigh being on the river.
  b) However, I still like my New City 4 better than your blue dot. What are the reasons for moving that location inland? By moving it to the coast, we have room for another town (New City 5), which is missing on your dotmap. The BG can be worked by this other town, and the second sugar tile will automatically fall within our borders, once we capture Rotterdam.
  c) Not sure, whether your yellow dot or my New City 6 is better. In my map I did not yet see, that the yellow circle was a BG. Originally I had planned to put another town there (marked with a big white "9"), but that may be cramping it a bit too much.
  d) Why did you discard New City 2? That was the most important town in my map, because it should start a Forbidden Palace prebuild soon.
  
  In general I think: We should cramp it a bit. In DWetzel's dotmap we have 5 towns, where I planned for 9. Perhaps 7 or 8 is a compromise?! I don't think it's necessary to get the towns to 10spt. Two towns with 5spt will produce exactly the same number of units as one town with 10spt!! And the two towns have several advantages: twice as much free units, faster growth (one town puts only +2fpt into the box, two towns will put +4fpt into the box!) and faster research (each city center has an extra commerce).

Lanzelot

 

[DWetzel]

b) I think it gets more immediate production. Can easily put a coastal city (not pictured) on the corner near blue dot to pick up fish/etc. I just wasn't planning that far ahead. It may not be a huge deal.

c) A reasonable compromise here might be to put two cities out by yellow, one on yellow dot and one 2SE of yellow dot. They'll both be pretty crappy towns, unfortunately, but unit support is unit support.

d) It just felt too cramped for me. This could be an artifact of playing space type games more often, and I could easily be wrong. I do think it's important to have a few more powerful cities (where on earth are we going to do a GLib prebuild, for instance) for early production.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Just reread the first post. Two things that need to be changed:
1) This is SGFN08, not SGFN05.
2) War declarations do not need to be voted on seeing as this is an AWM game.

^A Pointless Comment Brought to You by Sparthage^

OK, wiseass!. They've been fixed! Happy now?

Time for a roster update:

Roster:

1: TheOverseer714=> resting on his 'laurels'
2: Gamezrule=> putting out fires
3: Sparthage=> enjoying a cool drink
4: DWetzel=> just played
5: Splunge=> up
6: Goodsmell=> on deck
7: Lanzelot=> warming up

Anyone seen Splunge of late? Or Gooodsmell?

 

[Sparthage]

OK, wiseass!. They've been fixed! Happy now?

Yes.

edit: Splunge was last active 2 days ago. Goodsmell, this morning around the same time as me.

edit 2: We should name one of our cities "Kriegstreiberei ist Erfreulich".

 

[Lanzelot]

d) It just felt too cramped for me. This could be an artifact of playing space type games more often, and I could easily be wrong.

It will be less cramped, once Berlin is disbanded...!

I do think it's important to have a few more powerful cities (where on earth are we going to do a GLib prebuild, for instance) for early production.

I don't plan to do a GLib prebuild at all. Those shields are much better invested in units... Either we use the SGL for it, or (which might even be better) we let one of our friends build it for us... Here is why it is better to let someone else build it:
If we build it, we have the GLib. If we build units, we have the units and the GLib Also, if we build it ourselves, it will stop being useful after Education. If we let someone else build it and then capture it at the right point in time, it will net us techs beyond Education (once I even managed to get half the Industrial Age in one turn that way). The only thing I'm unsure about: will it work on Monarch? So far I've only done it on Demigod/Deity. The Monarch AIs may be too slow and we might be faster researching everything ourselves instead of waiting for the slow-pokes to come up with something useful....

Lanzelot

 

[Bucephalus]

Here is why it is better to let someone else build it:

If we build it, we have the GLib. If we build units, we have the units and the GLib Also, if we build it ourselves, it will stop being useful after Education. If we let someone else build it and then capture it at the right point in time, it will net us techs beyond Education (once I even managed to get half the Industrial Age in one turn that way).

lurker's comment:

In a peaceful game this is a viable tactic; however, in AW you are in an entirely different situation. Because you cannot afford to fall behind in techs - specifically military techs - you will be forced into continuing research anyway. And by committing yourselves to this strategy you are also taking for granted that the GLib will be built somewhere conveniently close by.

The only thing I'm unsure about: will it work on Monarch? So far I've only done it on Demigod/Deity. The Monarch AIs may be too slow and we might be faster researching everything ourselves instead of waiting for the slow-pokes to come up with something useful....Lanzelot

Again, AW moves the goalposts; researching every tech yourselves keeps the tech pace far slower than in a normal game, particularly as you will have high unit support and will be in a Monarchy.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker's comment:

Buce is correct, for the most part the pace will be much slower as everyone is always at war. This would make getting a lot of techs from the GLB problamatic at AWM. The only time it does not slow down much is if you do not have contact with most civs.

I just finished an AWM where I did not go for the GLB and did not capture it, till I would learn Theo on the IBT and knew all the lower tier to MT. I got ED and PP. The idea for me was to not be able to do zero research via the GLB and see it if made any difference.

It was not easy to avoid having to either not research or just go ahead and learn ED and move on. They were that slow. In the end it did not matter as all I saved was 4 turns for Ed.

So making more units rather than the GLB was better in this game as Lanzelot said. I was able to take more land with those units.

 

[del62]

Lurker's comment:

If you are on Islands, the best wonder might be Great Lighthouse.

 

[DWetzel]

We definitely need the GLB. It's impossible* to both maintain a good research rate and have enough units to mow down enemies. Keep in mind that we'll be paying a lot in unit support, and doing that AND keeping a research rate up is not very likely.

*Okay, it's not impossible, but it's a LOT harder, and I think it will make this game go a lot more smoothly for everyone involved.


I really think we need to stop, NOW, and figure out once and for all what we are going to do. I think that if we were going to do Pyramids, we'd have done it already (why research Alpha and Pottery before Masonry), so I think the GLib is the choice. It is a game for newbies, after all, so smoothing out a lot of the potential issues of planning for unit support, research rates, etc. is a very good idea in my opinion.

 

[Optional]

I've opened the game and checked F4: the Dutch don't know writing yet! Very good news.

Lurker's comment:
Err...

Spoiler :

Also F4 diplomacy gives it. Sorry, I'm not trying to prove someone was wrong here, but it would affect your views on what strategy to take, so I think you're better off with the right info.

About who's up; what has Splunge's contribution to this game been sofar? Maybe his idea to join was just merely that; an idea?
Goodsmell also disappeared for a few days in the other game, then returned and said he had been on army duty. It might be the same thing here, so I think he'll be back.
You could give someone else the nod in the meantime, of course, I don't see why not.

 

[Daeron]

lurker's comment: The Dutch are usually dead set on either Philosophy or Map Making.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment:

What you appear to be missing here is that this implies that the Dutch know someone else; I'll bet my life savings that there is land beyond the Netherlands.

 

[TheOverseer714]

While we have a short break, we do need to pick a course before we continue. Since we haven't used the SGL for the Pyramids and we have no real possibilty of a prebuild yet, it might as well be the GLib.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment:

IMO, the GLib will prove more useful in this game; if I'm right about the Dutch having contacts (and I'm sure I am) then you will soon be able to run zero science for a fairly long time, building up enough gold to fund deficit research later.

OTOH, the fast growth given by the Pyramids will not be that useful until you have a few more luxs to support the quicker growth; by the time you have them, the game will be well on it's way to being won.