SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

Overseer or Sparthage, If you don't mind could one of you finish this turnset, I can but it will get in quite late since I have a family problem that just came up. :sad: I will post a save and you can copy my turnlog. ;) I will be able to play once it gets back to me.
 

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As we're on 11 turns, why doesn't the next person play 9 and then we're back on "schedule", or just play 10, or whatever. If it's still off when I come up I'll just play nine and call it even.

As for the SGL, there are two good possibilities: Pyramids (requires Masonry) or save it for Great Library (which negates any need for a prebuild). I think in a solo game I'd go for Pyramids, but I think in this game it's probably safer to use the little Einstein to scope out the northwest peninsula then come home to wait until we can build TGL.

Actually, if we beeline for Literature next (i.e. right after Writing), getting it very very early could be a smart idea.
 
It's not too serious, I just gotta go down to Traverse City and I wouldn't be able to play Civ so it would set us back. ;)
 
Wow, this game is going fast... A bit too fast for me. Can we pause for a moment, it's quite late here already, but I'll post a couple of comments tomorrow morning.

Lanzelot
 
yeah, sorry for messing up your set, :blush: Hey but we got a SGL out of it. :goodjob:
 
I can see some things that need tweaked. Leipzig should build a worker then a granary, as we need to research masonry before we could build the Pyramids. Research should be set to 70% until pottery finshes. Lastly, Berlin should build an Archer so that if the Dutch warrior beats ours, he can be killed. Build a Spear after. Oh, and be careful about only having 1 unit in our capital, should that warrior attack there and win, it's game over dude:( Overall, a decent turnset. I think Lanzelots right, lets not hurry this. Sparthage, try to wait until there some more team input before playing tomorrow. As the enemies mount, we'll need to discuss strategy more often. Also, we need to decide tech choices and whether we continue if we are on an island.
 
So, how do you open that file? I haven't go a clue.
Download the save and put it in the folder where your saves are. For example, mine are in Program Files > Firaxis Games > Civilization 3 > Conquests > Saves. Then just fire up the game and "Load Game." The save should be there, ready to load up.
 
Lurker:

Well if you are on an island you can hold the leader for anything you want. If you are block by the Dutch, you probably do not want to sit on a leader till the GLB as you will not be able to make any MGL's during that time.
 
I can see some things that need tweaked. Leipzig should build a worker then a granary, as we need to research masonry before we could build the Pyramids.

I think that what Leipzig builds depends a great deal on what we decide to do with the leader. If we decide to go Masonry for Pyramids, tossing up a granary may not be a wise move. (Of course, I am not sure what it would build instead, but just using the wheat for a while, and have it peel off a worker or two, might make sense.)

vmxa makes a good point about having the SGL sitting around preventing us from getting any MGLs. It's not an immediate concern, since we're not exactly in heavy combat, but it will be before too terribly long.

On balance, I'd probably go Masonry next (also needed for Mathematics, and we will need catapults) and throw Pyramids up ASAP. That would mean building a granary in Leipzig wouldn't be smart.
 
Good point. I did say build a worker first, but a granary is a waste if we build the Pyramids. Saving an SGL in AW is not usually a good idea, so I'm for that. With only a few beakers invested, maybe we should switch to Masonry now?
 
. . . . Oh, and be careful about only having 1 unit in our capital, should that warrior attack there and win, it's game over dude:( . . . .
lurker's comment: This is another one of those points that may be obvious to all, but I'll mention it because we seem to have several AW newcomers in this game. I had never really considered this until I began playing more AW, but one simple fact about defensive units is this: A stack of attackers cannot take a city in one turn, provided that the city has at least one more defender than the stack has attacks. Period. A stack of three swordsmen simply cannot kill 4 warriors in one turn. Yes, you need quality units to attack. Sometimes, though, you just need quantity to defend. A spearman defends twice as well as a warrior, but costs twice as much, too.
 
Lurker:

the capitol tends to not come under attack in regular games, but does in AW. This one, maybe not as you may only have one direction in, hard to know. It sure is cheaper to insure to have at least two defenders, till it is proven safe though.
 
Good point. I did say build a worker first, but a granary is a waste if we build the Pyramids. Saving an SGL in AW is not usually a good idea, so I'm for that. With only a few beakers invested, maybe we should switch to Masonry now?

*forehead slap*

Yes, obviously this. "Few" in this case actually means "zero", as we JUST got Iron Working, so we're completely free to swap. I actually would see no need for us to ever research Pottery; we'll get it eventually from the Library.

Masonry will also get us Walls, which in AW games, especially early on, are a Very Good Thing.

According to CivAssist II, Masonry costs 106 beakers. Just eyeballing the save and accounting for growth, we should be able to get that in 13-15 turns. It doesn't matter where we build the Pyramids, so I'd just get the SGL in a town that will finish a build on the same turn (or immediately after) as Masonry. After Masonry, I'd probably start the beeline to Literature and the Great Library, with perhaps a stop-off for Math to build catapults. Since we don't have iron handy, we will need catapults + archers to mount a good offense.

I would use the worker to irrigate the wheat it's about to finish roading, then move to the other wheat and mine that. That will provide us +5 fpt, and between the two wheat, the two bonus grasslands that will quickly be mined, and another bonus grassland that we can pick up once we build another town, we will have ourselves a lovely 4-turn settler factory.

I would make connecting our silks a priority after getting Leipzig up and running; a town 3NW of Leipzig will give us a decent coastal city which is also well protected behind our borders, it will pick up two bonus grasslands, and it will allow us to pick up the silks and connect them quickly to our empire. CivAssist II says the Dutch have wines, so we will not be hurting for any luxuries at least!

Strategically, I think we should play very very defensively for a while--Berlin can continue to build veteran spears to guard Leipzig, Berlin, and our upcoming towns. If all the Dutch can muster is warriors, I'm not worried, and with them blocking the way, we don't need to worry about offensive units to kill things.
 
So, with the SGL we'll save for the Great Library. And technologically, we'll go straight for Lit?
 
:confused: Not sure where you got the first part of that, at least from the discussion I've been reading!

(If that's what the team decides, then I'm okay with that choice, but I think this one definitely falls under "team consensus" as to what to do, since it will likely shape the rest of the game.)
 
Ok, here is now finally my input.

First of all, I need to give some criticism. I hope it won't be too harsh and won't offend anybody, but I have to get this of my chest... :D

I think the team is not cooperating smoothly yet!

Point 1: We had no decent discussion about the early research strategy, and especially the early phase is most important! Overseer just picked Iron Working as first tech and went with it without consulting the rest. I think from a strategic perspective IW was a mistake for the following reasons:
  • IW is a risky gamble, because if it turns out that there is no iron (as it indeed did) we just wasted 31 turns for a tech that doesn't give us any benefit! This is even more annoying as Germany has no need for IW: it starts with Warrior Code so can immediately build archers, and these are sufficient for the early passive phase.
  • In the beginning we have other more urgent priorities than IW: we need to win the race to Philosophy (the free tech it gives is essential as we can't trade, even if you don't want to go for the Republic Slingshot), and we need to get out of Despotism asap! Iron Working does nothing for either of these two objectives. We jeopardize the race to Philosophy and we will be 31 turns longer in Despotism as we would otherwise have been.
  • And finally: as we need to research every tech on our own, it is essential to do the cheap techs first and the more expensive ones later, when there are more towns. However, Iron Works (at 160 beakers) was the most expensive tech that we could pick. Every other one would have been cheaper.

    Let me explain this point with a little calculation: It took us 31 turns to finish IW. Suppose for a moment, we will do Pottery next and then Alphabet. Pottery (48 beakers) is currently at 13 turns, but once Berlin grows back a bit, it will probably go down to 9 or even 8 turns. Suppose that we would choose Ceremonial Burrial (53 beakers) in order to get to Monarchy quickly. It will probably take 8-9 turns again. So in total we needed ca 49 turns for these three techs.

    Now suppose we would have done it the other way around: Pots first, followed by CB and then finally IW. Pots is so cheap that it can be done in 10-11 turns from the start. CB would then take 10 turns as well, and by that time our empire has grown so much that IW can be done in around 20 turns instead of 31! So in total we needed only around 40-41 turns for the same three techs, just by doing them in a different order!! I think considerations like these are of vital importance, if we want to keep up with the tech pace, as we have to research everything ourselves while the AIs will be trading with each other.

Point 2: Leipzig is misplaced. Didn't anybody listen to DWetzel? He indicated the perfect location for our second town in post #85. I would have suggested that spot myself, but as I was short on time the last couple of days and as I noticed that DWetzel had already recognized the power of that spot, I thought everything was going well and did not post it again. Now I come back, download the current .sav file and have to realize that Leipzig is on the wrong spot! :cry:
Let me reiterate, why Leipzig is badly placed:
  • First of all, we already realized that we are in a tight corner of the world, so we need to pack our core towns closely. Leipzig is too widely spaced.
  • Next, as DWetzel already mentioned: we want towns at distance at most three, so that defensive units can be moved around from town to town in a single turn. That will allow us a flexible defense. The consequences of that mistake can already be seen in the current .sav file: Berlin is threatened by two warriors and there's only one spearman inside. With Leipzig being close by and connected by a road, we could now move the warrior protecting Leipzig into Berlin and fend off that threat. The way it is now, we have to keep our fingers crossed and pray that the lonely spear will survive the attack...!
  • Leipzig is one square away from the coast. Never put a town one square away from the coast! Either put it directly on the coast, so it can build a harbor and ships, or put it at least 2 squares away from the coast, so that it doesn't block the space for other coastal towns! We may be on a small island in this game, so this might also become a major factor!
  • And finally: Leipzig is not on the river!! The spot indicated by DWetzel would have been. This means we are now loosing 1 gold every turn. At this early stage (with 7 gpt income) this means you just blew 14% of our empire's income! This may mean another turn or two longer for every early tech we research. And it also means Leipzig will have to spend 100 shields on an aqueduct later on!

Ok, after these harsh words let's get back to the current situation. ;) We have an SGL, great! This might be a game breaker (provided Berlin survives the attack next turn... :rolleyes:). So Iron Works turned out to be the right choice after all... :goodjob:
I see most of you want to use it for the Pyramids. Makes sense. However it also means that with Masonry we will now need to research yet another tech that doesn't bring us any closer to either Philosophy or Monarchy.

However, there's one other point to be considered: if this indeed turns out to be a small island, the Pyramids might be wasted: in that case it would be cheaper to build let's say 5 granaries by hand in some important towns and keep the SGL for the GLib.

If you guys would be willing to give Republic a try, I would recommend the following approach:
  • Do Pottery now, so we can get the 4-turner online asap.
  • Afterwards do Alphabet -> Writing -> Philosophy. On Monarch level there is a slight chance that we might still be first to Philosophy (but there will certainly no time anymore for the full slingshot). So we choose Literature as free tech and can immediately rush the GLib. I estimate that in less than 60 turns we can have the GLib up and running. (At the same time Alphabet will give us the ability to send out 2-3 early curraghs and find the necessary overseas contacts, that will make the GLib worthwhile.)
  • Afterwards we will only need to research Code of Laws and Republic to finally get out of despotism. Then we shut down research and wait for the techs come rolling in... :coffee:

But then, if most of you are in favor of Monarchy, I can live with that as well. I only thought: this is not a competitive game, so we can experiment a bit and see how it turns out. We won't discover new strategies by always following the trodden paths... :D
And after all: Monarch level isn't that hard is it? We should be able to get away with just about anything and still win, so why not even get away with Republic when all the AW experts say "Monarchy!"...

However, if you do decide to go for Monarchy, then please somebody draw up a decent research plan that can combine the three objectives "getting something out of Philosophy", "making good use of the SGL" and "getting out of despotism asap" in a smooth way. I think the plan that I outlined above, combines all these three objectives in an elegant way.

Cheers, Lanzelot
 
SGL is for the Pyramids, imagine losing an MGL because of it? Besides, we might get another for Writing, Phiosophy, or Literature. I think if we have no enemies beyond the dutch nearby, we can focus on research for awhile.
 
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