SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

Perugia · Sep 11, 2006

OK well done everyone. Things are really moving on a pace. BrianS is up and here is the turn order.

Brian S (up)
Merum (on deck)
Sweetacshon
Perugia
BLubmuz
Doom Train (resting)

@Doom Train. Good time to stop.

I agree with Merum that Aryan is well worth keeping. Why don't we let the barbs settle the rest of our continent this way rather than doing it ourselves.

@Brian. Thanks for your thoughts on research it really helps me clarify which way to go as well. Can you just clarify whether the numbers you gave for research the time at 100% science or break even rate?

I like the option to go for Astronomy first so we can take full advantage of our UU and gain a foothold on the funny continent. With cats & samurai it should be easy at least until grenadiers & rifles. One of the teams is already motoring ahead in score and hopefully we might be able to catch up a bit with a superior science base. Choosing Astronomy really does not do any harm to science as it enables observatories which are cheaper than universities and allow an extra scientist.

Besides through this method we can always use a Great Scientist to learn Education and or Chemistry?

I agree with having some Samurai ready for when Astronomy comes in. These can be built with 4/5 XP and then sent into barb territory to become 5/5 thence to the embarkation point. We should also train a galley or two so we can upgrade these on the turn we learn Astronomy.

After that we should be able to build galleons and send them mostly on a one way trip adding to our ship chain with each build.

Our best upgradable medieval units + medics can sit in the embarkation port and if load and upgrade if we are short of samurai or cats when a galleon is ready to sail. We should check our old units to see if any can be given Medic 2.

We should build longbows/crossbows to defend Kyoto + Surf n Turf (a unit should defend the cows). As we would occypy all the land tiles, it will be hard for the AI to win due to the negative modifier for attacking from on-board a ship. A caravel would be useful to protect our fish and clams and to transport missionaries and spy on the AI. If we are happy to spend the cash we can pre-build some warriors & galleys here as well so we can upgrade to Galleons and Samurai once we have Astronomy but this will be expensive. With optics upon us do we want to settle the stone island before the AI grabs it and snag the whales or do we just wait for cultural expansion. Don't forget we also want to build the FP in Kyoto. This is a very big wish list for these hammer poor cities, I'm not sure how much of this can be accomplished before we learn Astronomy - certainly not all of it I dare say.

Finally, once Madrid has Granary and Forge can we should build a courthouse there as it is the furthest from Osaka. We should restart work on the other ones that we pre-built to complete at the same time. This will provide the 6 courthouses we need to enable the FP in Kyoto.

How to win.

I'm not sure of the political side but Geographically we need to worry about the cities that are furthest from our core. I think it a good model to think of the ring continent as a clock with Kyoto in the middle. In general terms, ignoring political matters). It would be great to punch a corridor through the ring continent at approx 3 o'clock to gain a city on the inner coast so we can link up with Kyoto. We can then strike almost any AI at will and quickly move the troops around using the sea.

Then we

BrianS · Sep 11, 2006

@Brian. Thanks for your thoughts on research it really helps me clarify which way to go as well. Can you just clarify whether the numbers you gave for research the time at 100% science or break even rate?

I was using the percentage for research rate which was in the last save. I didn't change it. It does reflect deficit spending, so the total time will take longer, although I figure it will even out once we get our economy in better order.

Perugia · Sep 11, 2006

BrianS said:
I was using the percentage for research rate which was in the last save. I didn't change it. It does reflect deficit spending, so the total time will take longer, although I figure it will even out once we get our economy in better order.

Thanks. So Kyoto and Surf n Turf will have approx 30-40 turns before there is any chance to get in our happy resources and iron.

As you are the one who originally proposed Optics I'm sure you are prepared to use the caravels wisely. IMO we should aim to load them with missionaries wherever possible to magnify their exploration potential when they reach land.

I believe our first 3 caravels should be built rapidly and at the same time we should produce 3 christian missionaries to sail in them. One set on the East coast, 2 sets on the west coast. The west coast pair should be used to ferry their missionaries across the ocean so they can disembark on the ring continent while we either build a ship in Kyoto to collect them on the inner radius or one of the caravels sails right around through the strait. These missionaries shouldbe used to convert Kyoto and Surf n Turf to our state religion ASAP.

One of these 2 caravels can explore the hostile coast of Egypt where our galley had to be disbanded by Doom Train.

The east coast caravel can sail east and get us the circumnavigation bonus and drop off its missionary load on the west side of the ring continent. It can then continue to explore or return home via a different route to reload.

Have fun with the fog. As it's peace you'll have 15 turns to play.

BLubmuz · Sep 11, 2006

I've seen your plans, and I wish to contribute.

Research: agreed for Astronomy, but if a scientist pops, he can research about the 70% of education, once we have paper (if not he research paper, a waste - a GS gives Philo if you don't know CS), then prior to eliminate this option, let's see the chances for a GS and how many turns left to the pop.
To clarify: (i hope)
- we'll go for optics
- 1st option once researched, if we have a GS, we'll go for Paper that is researched at 30%,
- 2nd option f only few turns are left for the GP, we can risk some turn on Paper, eventually with 0% research
- if we are lucky, with a GS Education is cheap, otherwise, let's go for Astron.
- once angkor wat is completed AIs give away Philo, so, if we got a tech and money we can trade for it, then liberalism, free tech Astronomy.
This path is almost the same that optics>Astron., but we can have 3 more techs. Of course ONLY if we got a GS.

Usually AIs go for guilds>Banking, so, if we skip we got good chances to win the Liberalism race.

Don't forget to put an explorer in our caravels, if there are islands, there should be some GH.

See GotM8 for this, i had 3 or 4 techs this way, and Astron. could be one.

I definitely vote for new cities, 2 or 3, depends from the resources, this way we'll can build more units.
And don't forget that growth is power.

BrianS · Sep 11, 2006

Inherited Turn 1106
Toledo: Whip Granary
Kyoto: Switch market to Longbowman
Barcelona: Whip Library

Turn 1 1112
Optics -> Astronomy (Blubmuz had a very good idea about using GP to shoot for Liberalism, but our next GP is 22 turns away, so we'll go for Astronomy)
Battle for Aryan: Sword wins, Axe loses, Axe wins, Axe wins. Aryan is ours.
Barcelona: Library->Missionary
Toledo: Granary->Caravel
Madrid: Whip forge
Surf & Turf: Whip forge

Switch to binary research at 0%. Didn't note GPT this turn, but in 1118 this earned us 45GPT. This will keep our options open just in case...

Turn 2 1118
Tokyo: Forge->Caravel
Madrid: Forge->Missionary
Surf & Turf: Forge-> Longbowman

Turn 3 1124
Cordoba: whip forge
Barbarian Horse archers appear south of Santiago and Osaka. This may be our chance to get rid of Santiago!

Turn 4 1130
IBT: Barb horse archer takes Santiago but doesn't raze it. I'll bring some forces over to do this. The other horse archer kills himself on an axe outside Osaka.
Cordoba: Forge->Caravel

Turn 5 1136
KK cancels the deal to give us GPT. Ungrateful wretch.
Barb galley appears in south
Tokyo: Whip gallery to have it produce caravel on same turn that Osaka produces missionary.

Turn 6 1142
Take Santiago. I swear that I didn't choose to keep instead of raze, but there it is, still ours. There must have been a slip of the finger!

Turn 7 1148
Caravel 1 sets sail from Tokyo with a Christian missionary
Madrid: Missionary -> Courthouse
Barcelona: Whip missionary

Turn 8 1154
Cordoba: Rush Caravel
Toledo: Rush Caravel
Barb fights don't amount to much.

Turn 9 1160
Bismarck cancels GPT
Cordoba: Caravel -> Lighthouse
Toledo: Caravel -> Lighthouse
Tokyo: Rush another caravel to protect our fishing fleet. Our 2 galleys didn't have so much luck exploring the south. One was killed and the other badly wounded. The wounded one is fleeing to Tokyo with a barb galley in hot pursuit.
Kyoto: Whip market

Turn 10 & 11
Zzzzz

Turn 12 1178
Osaka: Market->Heroic Epic

Turn 13 1184
Madrid: Courthouse->Library

Turn 14 1190
We have circumnavigated the globe first, picking up the +1 movement bonus

I decide to stop here. Our missionaries cannot wander through Egypt without OB, and I wasn't sure if we wanted to do that.

As a heads up, more barbs are outside Santiago, so maybe we can lose it again!

I whipped a lot to make sure we got caravels and missionaries out, as I really wanted to get the movement bonus. We did that, but the economy is still a bit in the toilet as a result. However, we're on the verge of a builder economy for the next few turns, and I think everything is in pretty good shape. I did not get to do any exploring with the caravels other than what was on the fast track to circumnavigation.

I was a little sloppy in keeping track of builds, so the above may be lacking in some detail.

The Save

Spoiler :

Perugia · Sep 12, 2006

I just noticed that the Civ4 War Academy was posted on the main site a few days ago. If this is anything like CivIII, which I'm sure it is, this will really help finding what you want rather than trawling the strategy articles sub-forum.

Thanks to the Staff and Contributors for this.

@Brian. Thanks for a yet another well played turnset and congratulations on snagging circumnavigation!

Perugia · Sep 12, 2006

Exploration

Reinstating the OB with Hatty is a no brainer. Our Missionary can then disembark and head for Kyoto overland while exploring a bit on the line Giza to Phoenicien. It can then swing N of Phoenicien over to Essen in time to be picked up by a Caravel. I suggest a path of fog is left to the S of Heliopolis that a later units can explore before swinging N to fill in the Thebes area.

Having religion at Kyoto will help build the FP.

The other Missionary we have at the moment on the caravel to the SE of Giza can land slightly further S than the first and travel S of Phoenicien to be picked up at Cologne to be used at Surf n Turf. Maybe better it can just explore all the land in a clockwise direction while we just rush another Missionary at Kyoto for Surf N Turf but that delays the FP for at least 2 turns.

@Merum The caravel off the Incan coast is on a goto so be ready to cancel this. As the missionary is blocked from exploring Milanese and Incan land I'd drop him off in Mongolia near our workboat where it can explore as far as allowed S then turn around and fill in the rest of Mongolia and China.

The caravel can then sail around the Vilcas island before heading SW past its initial position and along the fog bound coast anticlockwise.

Diplomacy

I agree with Brian it is slightly too early to determine our plan. Maybe we can start after the next turnset.

Merum · Sep 12, 2006

I got it. Will play either tonight or tomorrow. Closing out my old job is crazy right now. :crazy:

BLubmuz · Sep 13, 2006

Good turnset, Brian, with 22 turns to GS, research Astronomy was the right thing.

A technical question: how do you post full view SS?
I'm able to post only links :blush:

.

Good luck, Merum, especially for your jobs.

Sweetacshon · Sep 13, 2006

Nice one Brian, you play well.

The ideas for techs and exploration are fine, but I have no idea how we intend to conquer everyone yet. With our own religion, noone will be willing to be our dog, although Bismark is the closest, with at least Mao, Hatty, and MM being white on his diplo war options. Of course we have nothing to offer for that right now. MM would seem the obvious choice for first victim, as KK might aid us, but Hatty loves him, as does Bismark (+8 relig modifier!!). HC might be an easier target.. as the only jew, he is pretty neutral in everyones eyes. I'm hoping some opportunity will present itself.

I was thinking it might be time to put Barcelona, Seville, and probably Cordoba on purely commerce duty. The sugar between Barce and Cordoba which is currently used by Barce could go to Cordoba to even out the food a bit, if we cottage spam and back off on the whip there, they could be 3 good commerce cities for when we are unit heavy. Someone (sorry, it's too far back) mentioned farming up to Barce, but I don't think it's worth it. It's all grassland anyway... just cottage evrything that isn't a food resource.

One other thing is the possibility of another city or 2 in New Japan. Gaul doesn't seem too bad for a bit of production, and somewhere in the middle of that forest S of Osaka would be ok.

Doom Train · Sep 13, 2006

Nice turnset BrainS

Good work on circumnavigating bonus.

It s obivious that we need to start war between other countries to ease out conquest. I ll check Brain s save tonight and think about some ideas.

BrianS · Sep 13, 2006

A technical question: how do you post full view SS?

I use ImageShack.com. It lets you upload a jpeg to their site, and then you just copy the link for forums into your message.

BrianS · Sep 13, 2006

Sweetacshon:

One other thing is the possibility of another city or 2 in New Japan. Gaul doesn't seem too bad for a bit of production, and somewhere in the middle of that forest S of Osaka would be ok.

Yes, I like your idea of turning the Barcelona, Seville and possibly Cordoba into commerce cities, but we could use 2 or 3 more good production cities to gear up for war. Those southern sites are okay production sites so we should probably go for them.

I would have preferred Gaul 1W to pick up the horses and allow a mine on the hill. That would help production quite a bit. But if we raze it, we will need to build a settler. Thoughts?

Perugia · Sep 13, 2006

BLumbuz said:
A technical question: how do you post full view SS?

BrianS said:
I use ImageShack.com. It lets you upload a jpeg to their site, and then you just copy the link for forums into your message.

I find ImageShack reduces the SS size to fit my browser window and can thus lose detail.

I prefer the alternative CivFanatics Easy Upload system. There is a link to this in the thread header called "Upload".

Either way, once your file is uploaded to either server, copy the link given to the clipboard. Then go back to your post and click the Insert Image icon (The yellow square with a mountain on it). Then paste your link and hey presto.

You can still use the Manage Attachments feature if you want to include other SSs as thumbnails.

@Sweetacshon. We are not going to be able to give anything away any time soon as we want to monopolise Astronomy for a while. HC is definitely a fall back victim but it would be good if we could attack someone closer. However, by checking the historical records and exploration we should be able to work out who owns the holy cities for the minor religions. If we DoW on someone with a minor Holy city they will change to their own religion. Not only will this put them into several turns of anarchy (unless they are spititual) but they will suddenly get -ve religion modifiers with their former friends. This should at least stop them from getting an ally in the war which should be fine for the 1st war with our Samurai first strike advantage.

It would be good if we can selectively attack the fatter parts of the continent first ie HC, MM, Bismarck and Hatty as our units will have to march overland to capture the internal cities and we should try to leave areas like Mongolia and China until later where our fast navy will be able to land units at several key points for a rapid conquest.

BLubmuz · Sep 13, 2006

Thanks all for help, so I use it to propose this SS for new cities placement.

Let me know your thoughts

If you are eligible (and interested, of course) give an eye to my posts for GotM10 (very proud of it).
BTW any of you participate at GotM???

BrianS · Sep 13, 2006

Thanks for the dot map Blubmuz. I like your choice 1NW of Gaul. However, for the sheep-wheat city, I'd move 1SW. We want this to be a production city, and moving 1 SW will give us 3 hills to mine. With the other spot, we can only mine 1 hill.

I'm also not in love with spot 3 - it has only 1 good mineable hill, and then 2 desert hills, which I try to avoid.

Also, I'm not sure we're going to be able to lose Santiago. The more I think about it, I'm pretty sure I didn't aske to keep Santiago. I think when you conquer a former city from a barb, you get the city back, even if you don't want it. Maybe we should starve the city down to 1 and see if it gets razed when the barbs take it then.

Merum · Sep 14, 2006

To kick things off, I OB with Hatty, so our missionary can walk around.
Drop off the missionary in Egypt.
I'm a little puzzled as to why our caravel can be in Incan waters without OB... I can't drop off the missionary in Mongolia until next turn.

T1 Just exploring

T2
More exploring

T3
Still exploring

T4
Barb axe finally decides to take Santiago. I'll get up a force to raze it now.

Well, a crash just ate a bunch of my notes, but there really wasn't much to report, and I've got the autosave on 1, so we didn't lose any game. Back to it then, yes? Right.

T12
We definitely got Santiago back, and I didn't get the option to ask for it. Putting it into starve mode.

T13
Al HAzen, our GS, is on a caravel with goto orders back to the mainland. He can lightbulb philosophy, but I think we can use him better than that.

OK. I took a few extra turns to compensate for the boredom, and to save the next player from it. Between T13 and now, the following happened:

Hatty canceled our OB. Christianity is not working well for us here.
Al Hazen is in Osaka, where he can build an academy, or do something else.
I whipped a market in Barcelona, due next turn.
Astronomy is due next turn.
Exchanged Santiago with the barbs again, who chose not to raze it, and it didn't auto-raze. I guess they must have culture in it, too. If this is going to be the way it is, we might as well try to develop it. At least having and starving it, we get 3 beakers per citizen.
I have a missionary on the way to germany, and I've already converted Berlin. Maybe we can get somebody over to our religion.
The shortest path to the ring island overwater is from our east coast. Inca is the closest nation. We should get that coast under our culture, before he sends a settler.
There's a settler/Axe pair on the way south, for settling someplace.
We should be able to whip the FP in Kyoto pretty soon.
Madrid is ripe to be whipped for something.
I've built a handful of Samurai.
Most of the world is explored. I guess we're qualified for the first spoiler now.

Sorry for the crappy notes, and I guess I got slightly carried away on the extra turns, but there really wasn't much to do but move units and hit enter.

Everything else of note can be found in the turn log (there's not much)

Here's the Save

Spoiler :

Sweetacshon · Sep 14, 2006

Turn 263, 1238 AD: Bismarck converts to Buddhism!

That kind of puts MM's head on the chopping block, doesn't it?

I agree with moving Gaul 1NW, and city2 either W or SW off the hill. city3 and city? don't seem worth it, imo.

I'm up next, I'll check the save and post a plan, then play in about 18 hrs.
Initially, tho, prioities are:
-settling new cities
-conversion of... anyone who'll have us, starting with Bismark
-accumulating the army, and getting the navy prepared
-trying to spark a war.
Anything else? Opinions on settlement and trades would be most welcome.

Perugia · Sep 14, 2006

I'm a little puzzled as to why our caravel can be in Incan waters without OB... I can't drop off the missionary in Mongolia until next turn.

Caravels and submarines ignore borders

That's why I suggested the caravel explore HCs and MMs southern coasts.

I think Alhazen will research most of Education for us if we can trade for Philosphy. This will be help us with trading and bribing the AI to war on each other plus we get the beakers sooner than building an academy.

When deciding what to whip in Madrid remember it's supposed to be our Great Person farm.

BLubmuz · Sep 14, 2006

If we all agree the placement of city 1,
then city 2 is better where i drawed, to let the plain hill for city 1.

Since we are condemned to keep Santiago, city 3 has no sense.
City ? to grab iron and fish, and to avoid some AI lands in our island, but we can skip it

What about HC as first target victim?

SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

Prince

Prince

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

Prince

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

Warlord

Prince

Prince

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

In the foetal position

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

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