SGOTM 12 Maintenance Thread

[leif erikson]

Do you mean PM AlanH or is there an admins alias that should be PM'ed instead?

AlanH is the admin for this game.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Recommend the player completing the last turn set post it as an attachment in your thread for now.

Unfortunately, we don't know when he will be able to check in and notice we don't have a save file. He is no doubt enjoying a well deserved rest.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Deckhand]

@ Sun Tzu Wu:

Recommend the player completing the last turn set post it as an attachment in your thread for now.

 

[Erkon]

...In any case, i'd like to have an answer after all the teams have finished. And the post re-issued after that...

The rule you refer to was updated on January 5th by Alan in the SGOTM 12 - Rules Discussion Thread.

We are aware that this update/clarification came quite late into the game, but it was an issue that we didn't think about until we got the question.

Thanks for the feedback. Let's revisit this topic when all games have finished. We're always keen to learn how to improve and make the games as enjoyable as possible.

 

[BLubmuz]

The rule you refer to was updated on January 5th by Alan in the SGOTM 12 - Rules Discussion Thread.

We are aware that this update/clarification came quite late into the game, but it was an issue that we didn't think about until we got the question.

Thanks for the feedback. Let's revisit this topic when all games have finished. We're always keen to learn how to improve and make the games as enjoyable as possible.

Definitely i overlooked the post you're referring to. The reasons can be spoilerish, so i abstain to list them.

Better than overlooked i underestimated it. I mean, i've read it, but for some reason i did not posted my comments.

I do it now (copy/paste from my deleted post, thanks Leif):

1) Re-reading the first post i understand that all the scenario conditions (all the fallout cleared, peace with the AIs) have to be met before the victory screen.

2) There's even a recommendation to PM the admins in case something strange happens after launch, like nukes launched or war declared by an AI.

Spoiler :

The teams are trusted to fulfill the objectives to the best of their ability, and any AI related events that prevent the fulfillment of the criteria for winning shall be described and forwarded in a PM to Erkon or me for analysis.

3) Aside the fact that it's highly inefficient to clean fallout after the SS landed, i find this "new" rule unfair and not in line with the usual GotM rules. The more if you think it arrived after a time extension, already an half past its lenght. And when some team already submitted their final save.

4) In the long history of SGotM, every condition has to be met at most in the final turn (see SG11, where you needed to have the requested Great People in position), not after that. To avoid any mistake, in SG11 the players were allowed to move the units on the furs in that same turn, but not later.

5) To make it simple, when you get the Victory screen, the game is over, period. Who's in is in, who's out is out.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

How is it inefficient to clean fallout after the spaceship has landed?

 

[shyuhe]

It's not that it's a new rule, it's that it was a point which no team asked to clarify until quite late in the time frame of the game. At the time the question was posed, I think it required a judgment by the admins as to whether they should or should not require that all victory conditions be met on the turn the SS lands. Either way, somebody was going to be unhappy with the decision since I doubt that all of the teams had interpreted the unwritten "rule" the same way. For example, if I thought that you could scrub fallout after the SS lands, and Alan had ruled that you needed to meet ALL of the conditions when the SS lands, then I'd be unhappy since the new "rule" didn't match my own interpretation of the rule. I don't think it's fair to criticize the admins just because they ruled on an issue in a direction that you didn't want them to.

...

1) Re-reading the first post i understand that all the scenario conditions (all the fallout cleared, peace with the AIs) have to be met before the victory screen.

The original post does not clarify whether the landing needs to be simultaneous with scrubbing. It just says X, Y, and Z have to be done but it doesn't say WHEN they have to be done.

2) There's even a recommendation to PM the admins in case something strange happens after launch, like nukes launched or war declared by an AI.

Alan's further post does not necessarily implicate the landing of the SS either. One of the issues that was raised during the pre-game thread was "what if one of the AI gets eliminated before we can do anything about it?"

3) Aside the fact that it's highly inefficient to clean fallout after the SS landed, i find this "new" rule unfair and not in line with the usual GotM rules. The more if you think it arrived after a time extension, already an half past its lenght. And when some team already submitted their final save.

Again, no matter which way Alan ruled on this issue, it was going to disturb someone's settled expectations.

4) In the long history of SGotM, every condition has to be met at most in the final turn (see SG11, where you needed to have the requested Great People in position), not after that. To avoid any mistake, in SG11 the players were allowed to move the units on the furs in that same turn, but not later.

There was a long lengthy discussion on the rules for SG11 and the timing issues. Nobody posed the timing issue for SG12. SG11 even had this language

The winner of the competition is the team that secures the earliest (measured by date) cultural or diplomatic victory where all these conditions are satisfied on the turn of your victory.

That is hardly the same language used in the rules for SG12.

5) To make it simple, when you get the Victory screen, the game is over, period. Who's in is in, who's out is out.

This just sounds like a gross over simplification.

 

[BLubmuz]

How is it inefficient to clean fallout after the spaceship has landed?

Usually you optimize every beaker and hammer to have your SS launched ASAP.
If, after such effort, you spend turns cleaning fallout, this is inefficient. Highly inefficient.

It's not that it's a new rule, (...)

The original post does not clarify whether the landing needs to be simultaneous with scrubbing. It just says X, Y, and Z have to be done but it doesn't say WHEN they have to be done.

This just sounds like a gross over simplification.

Simplicity is what makes a law good. It has always been so "simple". This is the first game i see (and that was "clarified" after 3.5 months) where this simplicity does not applies.

I can surely accept you finish to clean the fallout in the victory turn, but after that turn the game is over.

There was no need to specify that every condition has to be met in the victory turn. Since after that turn the game is over this is (was) implicit.

This is the reason why any event between the launch turn and the SS landing (so not under player's control) which kept the player to fulfill all the conditions should have been PMed to the Admins (Alan and Erkon).

As for an AI eliminated in the early game. If supposedly, Mao eliminated Churchill even before we knew where he was and we have no chance to bribe Mao at peace or to gift an iceball city in time to let Churchill survive, this needs to be PMed to the Admins, since it's an event out of the player's control. And i partially disagree here too. Gift an iceball was not a big effort, so if you notice an AI is down to 2 cities, you have the time to build the settler and to move it in the chosen location.

But the fallout scrubbing is totally under player control. If you think you can't scrub by the time the SS lands you will delay the launch. You can do it. No one will force you to launch.

Again this was implicit in the scenario rules. No need to clarify anything. In any competition the victory turn is the last one. Then the game is over. So simple, so clear.

BTW my team gains nothing if the Admins agree or not with the above. It's just i don't like what i consider an unfair change in the rules.

 

[Yamps]

^

IMO, this makes sense, but it's too late now. The rule was set on Jan 5 and teams set their play accordingly.

 

[AlanH]

It's just i don't like what i consider an unfair change in the rules.

I really don't see what all this fuss is about. If a team has to spend extra turns after their space victory to clear fallout then that is not going to give them a advantage. Why is the rule clarification (it's not a change) unfair?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Usually you optimize every beaker and hammer to have your SS launched ASAP.
If, after such effort, you spend turns cleaning fallout, this is inefficient. Highly inefficient.

If it's that highly inefficient, presumably the teams that take advantage of it won't win. So why does it matter?

 

[Gumbolt]

I think every team had 4 months to question this rule. The game is over in 24 hours. Time to draw a line under this and make sure everyone fully understands the confines of the rules for the next game.

Remember it is just a team game. The idea is to have fun. if you win an award along the way that is just a bonus.

Bring on the results page.

 

[BLubmuz]

I really don't see what all this fuss is about. If a team has to spend extra turns after their space victory to clear fallout then that is not going to give them a advantage. Why is the rule clarification (it's not a change) unfair?

That "clarification" changed what i consider to be implicit in the rules:
every scenario condition must be fullfilled in the victory turn.

As i said, even in that same turn, but not later.

I admit it's too late now to complain, i regret to not have done it when i saw your post.
Usually your decisions are wise, so i have the habit to accept them.
But let me say this time it's wrong, probably for the first time in years, for what i know and remember. This won't diminish my consideration for you. Everyone can make mistakes, right? Even me! Just take a look on my games.

I want just avoid to set a precedent on those competition rules.

I think every team had 4 months to question this rule. The game is over in 24 hours. Time to draw a line under this and make sure everyone fully understands the confines of the rules for the next game.

Remember it is just a team game. The idea is to have fun. if you win an award along the way that is just a bonus.

Bring on the results page.

True, no one did it until early January. Probably for the same reason i stated above: it was implicit that you have to fulfill the requirements at most in the landing turn or delay the launch.

In any case, it's part of the fun for me burn fire like this

@ChrisShaffer
it doesn't.
Just this: as i said, game or not, fun or not, clear rules first.

Now, let's wait peacefully the results.

 

[AlanH]

That "clarification" changed what i consider to be implicit in the rules:
every scenario condition must be fullfilled in the victory turn.
As i said, even in that same turn, but not later.

I sincerely believe this "implicit rule" is in your head, not in the documented information about SGOTMs. If you can quote this over-arching rule from anywhere in the back catalog of discussion on this or any other SGOTM competition, I'll happily concede that my clarification was out of order. Otherwise, I'm afraid the following explicit over-arching rules do apply:

1. The decision of the SGOTM administrator is final.
2. In the event of the SGOTM administrator being misinformed, incompetent or otherwise wrong, see rule 1.

 

[BLubmuz]

I sincerely believe this "implicit rule" is in your head, not in the documented information about SGOTMs. If you can quote this over-arching rule from anywhere in the back catalog of discussion on this or any other SGOTM competition, I'll happily concede that my clarification was out of order. Otherwise, I'm afraid the following explicit over-arching rules do apply:

Nice.
we can easily solve this by launching a poll, opened to all the participants on this competition.

Just ask:
did you think at the beginning you can extend the game after the victory screen?
a) yes
b) no

I'm sure no one thought to extend the game after the victory turn until the beginning of this month. It naver happened in the past. This is enough to make the rule "implicit".

Then some newbie asked the question and you fell in the trap.

In any case is just a question of clearness, nothing more. Surely i won't pretend one or more teams will be disqualified for having followed what an Admin stated in the rules thread.

Now, before you ask me why i'm raising all this dust i tell you: i like clearness and i've some spare time in those days.

 

[Mitchum]

Then some newbie asked the question and you fell in the trap.

Wow, you sure have it out for me, don't you BLubmuz. I assume that you're calling me the newbie since I asked the question. If you don’t count all of my xOTM games or my SGOTM with Fifth Element (your team for those that don’t know), then I’ll gladly accept the label of newbie if it makes you feel better. However, name calling rarely results in positive discussions going forward.

How can a "rule" that is not explicitly stated be a rule. I felt that the rules as stated were vague enough to warrant a clarification from the game admins. The admins must have felt that the rules weren’t clear enough either and they made a decision that went against your implicit rule for SGOTMs. Right, wrong or indifferent, a ruling was made by the admins and we all have to live with it. Belaboring the point for so long seems pointless (especially given the fact that using the rule is sub-optimal), but I have a feeling that we haven’t heard the last from you on this topic…

BTW, you will notice that after asking the question I also said:

I assume that the date of the space victory screen is the end of the game, but it wasn't explicitly stated as such (at least that I could find).

So, like you, I figured that the game ended when the space ship landed. However, asking the question ensured that all teams were playing by the same, explicit rules. That’s a good thing, no?

EDIT:

Now, before you ask me why i'm raising all this dust i tell you: i like clearness and i've some spare time in those days.

Good, so we're on the same page. Clearness is a good thing, which is why the question was asked. QED

 

[leif erikson]

i like clearness and i've some spare time in those days.

Doesn't get much clearer than:

1. The decision of the SGOTM administrator is final.
2. In the event of the SGOTM administrator being misinformed, incompetent or otherwise wrong, see rule 1.

 

[BLubmuz]

Wow, you sure have it out for me, don't you BLubmuz.

No, i don't!
I just did not checked the rules thread to see who asked the question. It's you? Alright, re-reading your post you did well. (you know, i'm growing older and i forget things)
The more since what i (and i'm sure a good number of the players in this competition) consider implicit seems to not be so. In fact Alan stated the opposite. Wrong? right? too late to complain.

I'm sure that if i've burnt this fire right after his post Alan would have changed his decision. Now it's too late, let's stop this and wait the results.

I was so sure of my assumption that i never thought to ask the question. As i already said, once you get the victory screen, the game is over. This is and has been true for any competition: GotM, SGotM, HoF Gauntlets... just name one.

but I have a feeling that we haven’t heard the last from you on this topic…

No this is my last post on this, rest assured!

So, like you, I figured that the game ended when the space ship landed.

Good to see i was not alone.

Last thing. I'm trying to figure what can have happened if you or anyone else never asked that question... pure speculation, we'll never know.

 

[AlanH]

but I have a feeling that we haven’t heard the last from you on this topic…

Yes we have ...

and i've some spare time in those days.

You guys may have nothing better to do with your time than to count angels on pinheads. I am a busy man, and I declare this subject closed ... beaten to death ... deceased ....

 

[vranasm]

But the fallout scrubbing is totally under player control. If you think you can't scrub by the time the SS lands you will delay the launch. You can do it. No one will force you to launch.

I think I can strongly support this point of view, because Phoenix Rising team (which I had the pleasure to be part of it) put pretty strong emphasis on not launching before all fallout is away and we have finished all wars we needed for such task as clearly evidenced by our discussions.
I think we didn't needed to delay the launch much (maybe not at all, can't remember right now, since last 2 TS did lymond and Gumbolt) but there were never point where we would deliberately risk launching without fallout cleared and AI's under relative control.