SGOTM 12 - Rules Discussion Thread

[lymond]

Hey Erkon - a couple of questions here:

1) Is it possible for you to enlighten us on how you created the "You Nuked Us" diplo modifier at the start of the game? Is this a code change?

2) Is the "You nuked us" diplo modifier a permanent hit or does it wear off over time?

 

[kossin]

Check the Maintenance Thread.

 

[shyuhe]

Hey Erkon - a couple of questions here:

1) Is it possible for you to enlighten us on how you created the "You Nuked Us" diplo modifier at the start of the game? Is this a code change?

2) Is the "You nuked us" diplo modifier a permanent hit or does it wear off over time?

I don't think answering either question would be fair to other teams, as those are game mechanic questions. As kossin pointed out, there's some info in the maintenance thread though.

 

[pocketbeetle]

Because you are the first person to suggest it. I'm trying to respond to the majority preference, or to reach a compromise where there is no obvious choice.
Make your case and see if anyone else agrees.

Arbitrarily picking a turn to switch graphs on or off is pointless.
No matter which turn you re-enable them on, information will be leaked, and there is no way for you to be certain about what could or could not be important. The 'snowball effect' argument (ie that earlier turns are more important) has no value here, as whichever turn you re-enable the graphs on is still going to precede other turns and ergo, snowball.

Trying to compromise by switching certain graphs off, is similarly futile.
All it does is benefit those who can read the remaining graphs.

Either the view is that teams should not be able to monitor the competition via graphs, in which case disable them all for the entire SGOTM.
Or that they should be able to and it is part of the competition, in which case do the opposite.

Seeking a middle ground will just leave both sides dissatisfied, and does not counter the perceived problem wholesale.

 

[Erkon]

Hey Erkon - a couple of questions here:

1) Is it possible for you to enlighten us on how you created the "You Nuked Us" diplo modifier at the start of the game? Is this a code change?

2) Is the "You nuked us" diplo modifier a permanent hit or does it wear off over time?

I don't think answering either question would be fair to other teams, as those are game mechanic questions. As kossin pointed out, there's some info in the maintenance thread though.

I'm afraid I can't answer these questions now that shyuhe has spoken against it. Sorry. It's not a code change though. The only update done to the code is that it's not possible to settle on fallout (neither for player nor the AI), and the fallout does not disappear automatically, as it normally does over time.

 

[AlanH]

Seeking a middle ground will just leave both sides dissatisfied, and does not counter the perceived problem wholesale.

Why must it be "all or nothing"? We already tread a middle ground, in that we don't display *all* the graphs we have until the end of the game.

 

[neilmeister]

Where teams settle it is a farily important point, especially on this map that only has a few viable settling options, because of the fallout.

It would not be hard to wait and see if other teams settled on turn 0, 1 or 2.

My team is the only one to post a save yet, and I am sure no-one cares where we settled. But Plastic Ducks for instance showed some very impressive analysis in the last game, and I personally would be very interested to see what turn they settled on.

Any other Graph-gazing is pure speculation. Each team will make differernt decisions which will impact on the RNG, and mean that AI in their games make different decisions too. I certainly wouldn't want to use the graphs to try and guess the latest possible date for Oracle or anything else for that matter.

 

[babybluepants]

I don't really understand. Why are graphs suddenly an issue, when they weren't in previous games? It's just part of the SGOTM experience, much like periodic spoilers in S&T games and the intermediate spoiler thread in xOTM.

As if the settling choices were obvious in SG10...

I find the notion that a competitive team will make decisions based on graph-gazing just plain silly and, moreover, entirely unfounded on evidence from previous games.

 

[neilmeister]

...and the intermediate spoiler thread in xOTM.

This would be a vaild point if we were allowed to view the intermediate thread before we have played up to that point.

 

[Mad Professor]

If some team wants to decide their policy by graph gazing they are welcome as far as I am concerned. It's just too easy to fudge things on the graph - like by posting a save one turn before you know something is going to happen, then playing a 30 turn turnset before posting another save so that save is posted 29 turns after something happens (like the oracle, for example) Anyone gazing at that graph is going to either gain nothing much or be terribly disappointed when they base policy on a wrong date.

The best policy is to base your strategy on good analysis of your game, and rigorous testing of the scenario. Graph gazing has way too many pitfalls. Go ahead and base your strategy on graph gazing! I for one care not!

 

[Earthling]

I don't really mind having the graphs open.

I'm not at all convinced the teams that play first/post the most graphs would have to be doing better or worse than teams that play later/don't have up-to-date graphs posted.

 

[BLubmuz]

(...) The best policy is to base your strategy on good analysis of your game, and rigorous testing of the scenario. Graph gazing has way too many pitfalls. Go ahead and base your strategy on graph gazing! I for one care not!

Ditto!
They're fun and sometime you can see roughly what a team is doing, but usually past the mid game.

Please let the things how they always been.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I concur - no reason to change the graphs after all these years. They work fine.

 

[Fluroscent]

Looking at graphs and trying to figure out what the other teams did is quite fun. But it is a more retrospective thing, very unlikely that someone would deliberately wait and try to "copy" a top teams graphs.

 

[nocho]

Can't wait for AlanH to put back the culture graph in order to know on which turn Fifth Element and T'dr have settled.

Seriously though, as most others, I don't really see the harm in those graphs, it's part of the fun.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't really understand. Why are graphs suddenly an issue, when they weren't in previous games? It's just part of the SGOTM experience, much like periodic spoilers in S&T games and the intermediate spoiler thread in xOTM.

As if the settling choices were obvious in SG10...

In the final analysis, the only true spoiler in the graphs is the culture graph telling people whether a team settled on T0, T1, .... Everything else read from the graphs is more or less speculative.

SG10 is a great example of spying on when a team settled. As it turned out, the better move was to the plains hill. Now, if you're the last to start and you can't decide whether to settle in place or not, seeing that the other teams settled on T1 instead of T0 makes it much easier to decide to move to the plains hill, not because that means it's the better move, but because you know you're on equal footing, no matter what.

But if one of the first teams actually figures out a quality logic why it's better to settle on T0 or T1, while others didn't, they're penalized when others can copy them. This argument only holds for the opening move, because, like I said, thereafter, it's all a matter of speculation.

AlanH made the right decision, imo.

 

[beestar]

Maybe our secret is that it's turn 40 and we're still wandering the land ...

 

[Indiansmoke]

In the final analysis, the only true spoiler in the graphs is the culture graph telling people whether a team settled on T0, T1, .... Everything else read from the graphs is more or less speculative.

The power graphs shows as well it seems.

But I don't understand what the fuss is about. If someone thinks everyone else will copy his move than he better wait until all play. If 2 teams think everyone will copy their move then they will be waiting on each other forever too bad for them..

In any case I will be happy for other teams to anxiously wait to see when we will settle and try to copy us

Moderator Action: Sentence deleted
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[AlanH]

Moderator Action: Enough of the flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Personal attacks are not welcome on these boards generally, and certainly have no place in a civilised discussion about the rules of a friendly]/b] competition.

I have agreed to hide the Culture Graph during thee start of the game. Any further debate as to whether this was a good decision can wait until there is evidence one way or another.

 

[Jaybone]

just a heads up for mods, I mistakenly clicked on the plastic ducks thread instead of phoenix rising (threads were right next to each other and they had 281 posts to our 282). I realized mistake immediately on browser header and didn't see any actual content, but just wanted to sned a heads up when somebody notices it on the log